Opioids Kratom Megathread V.6

[FluidSynchronocity]

Try drinking more water when you take it, and be very hydrated before you take it


Also, switching strains helps

 

[MDPV_Psychosis]

You were using high doses before stopping if I remember correctly.

With all the time off your tolerance would have dropped. But as soon as you started taking it again your tolerance would likely sky rocket back to what it used to be probably within a couple days. At least that it how it has worked for me with any drugs I've used. Tolerance is "relearned" much much quicker then the rate at which it's developed the first time.

 

[Mycophile]

You were using high doses before stopping if I remember correctly.

With all the time off your tolerance would have dropped. But as soon as you started taking it again your tolerance would likely sky rocket back to what it used to be probably within a couple days. At least that it how it has worked for me with any drugs I've used. Tolerance is "relearned" much much quicker then the rate at which it's developed the first time.

I mean it's true that when I stopped for 3 months once it had no effect on my tolerance, but this time it was 10 months and I felt at first at least, that it had had a big effect on it, though now I'm not so sure.

So you think that I'm actually not getting very high because my tolerance is still so high that I'm not taking enough?

(I mean it is true it had been at 16 grams a dose and now the most I've taken is 10.5...and I know it's not "recommended" I try to go back to taking what I had...but would that perhaps be the best chance I''d have at getting high?? Cause about a week ago I was nodding off at 9.5 grams and that wasn't just placebo....it's just so weird how unpredictable it seems to be now and I'm getting noticeably irritable from my doses...)

 

[MDPV_Psychosis]

Tolerance can go down with a really long break but unfortunately there is no way to prevent the fact that tolerance quickly builds back up to where you were once if you restart with regular use again. After restarting after a long break, your tolerance can pretty much sky rocket right back to where it used to be after only a few uses...

Best way to prevent this is to use sparingly

 

[Slow_Mobius]

Tolerance can go down with a really long break but unfortunately there is no way to prevent the fact that tolerance quickly builds back up to where you were once if you restart with regular use again. After restarting after a long break, your tolerance can pretty much sky rocket right back to where it used to be after only a few uses...

Best way to prevent this is to use sparingly

I totally agree with this. Probably why you're not getting much out of your kratom. It's phenomenon related to the kindling effect.

Also, iirc, you take other medications that might be affecting how the kratom feels.

 

[Ziiirp]

When does the RLS kick in (pun intended) for you guys after the last dose? It's been 24h after a 3.5g - dose of average grade, so atm I am wondering, whether to take a loperamid to sleep (have something to do tomorrow, otherwise I would just skip sleep, if necessary). I have an overall feeling of restlessness, in a positive way. No sign of unbearable restless limbs, yet though.

 

[Slow_Mobius]

It depends on the habit with worse habits causing RLS to kick in more quickly. Usually, i start to get RLS around 12-16 hours after dosing if it's a low-moderate habit. But I never get bad RLS from kratom. It's always mild

 

[Mycophile]

I totally agree with this. Probably why you're not getting much out of your kratom. It's phenomenon related to the kindling effect.

Also, iirc, you take other medications that might be affecting how the kratom feels.

One thing that's weird though is that I keep not being sure how much I need.

Like I have gotten high but it's very hit and miss and one day I'll think I found my dose and then the next that same dose doesn't work...so I'm guessing this is just rapidly returning tolerance so I can't really gauge my dose cause it's bouncing all over the place as my receptors or whatever are trying to figure out what to do with being re-introduced to this substance I'd had such a massive tolerance to after a 10 month break?

You think that might be it?

Cause like 10 days ago I obviously took too much as I was nodding out on 9.5 grams and that can't really be placebo I wouldn't think as I don't find that effect desirable....and yet the other day 10.5 felt like almost nothing, and I'm getting a lot of irritability.

It's like I get more side effects than I used to without as much of the high.

 

[Mycophile]

Slow-Mobius, this is what someone on Reddit said and what I thought was the case before, but even though i hope they are right, I unfortunately feel you might be because you said 20 mins isn't long enough to feel Kratom.

Is it really not possible to feel it in that amount of time?

I mean it's possible to feel a shot of alcohol in 20 mins time so why not Kratom?

Here's what this poster wrote:

OP I only read the most important parts. I'll tell you what's happening.
Kratom often has a "sweet spot". Take more than this, and it becomes less effective. What you're experiencing when u take the big dose and feel good for awhile, is your body metabolising the plant and the plasma levels reaching the "sweet spot"...then exceeding it and you lose the effects. Try starting with 3-4g and increasing it by 1g every 45min until you find the spot. But first:
To keep your doses down, say, every 5-7 days spend 2 days taking half your normal dose. The 3rd day, voila it works again. You can use this "formula" to lower dosage, too.

 

[Fresco]

Here's what this poster wrote:

OP I only read the most important parts. I'll tell you what's happening.
Kratom often has a "sweet spot". Take more than this, and it becomes less effective. What you're experiencing when u take the big dose and feel good for awhile, is your body metabolising the plant and the plasma levels reaching the "sweet spot"...then exceeding it and you lose the effects. Try starting with 3-4g and increasing it by 1g every 45min until you find the spot. But first:
To keep your doses down, say, every 5-7 days spend 2 days taking half your normal dose. The 3rd day, voila it works again. You can use this "formula" to lower dosage, too.

So is he saying you can beat tolerance this way as well??

 

[Ziiirp]

46h after last dose (3.5g) : Nothing serious to note, low energy, a bit leg pain (took 3 *2mg Loperamid in the last 24h, though). Sleep wasn't so awesome yesterday, but I usually sleep shitty anyway. It is now another kind of shitty sleep, but nothing to wine about.

Overall the feeling is like I took a crappy dissociative RC, which is also sedating. (nothing like DCK, though )

 

[Backfromthebrink]

OP I only read the most important parts. I'll tell you what's happening.
Kratom often has a "sweet spot". Take more than this, and it becomes less effective. What you're experiencing when u take the big dose and feel good for awhile, is your body metabolising the plant and the plasma levels reaching the "sweet spot"...then exceeding it and you lose the effects. Try starting with 3-4g and increasing it by 1g every 45min until you find the spot. But first:
To keep your doses down, say, every 5-7 days spend 2 days taking half your normal dose. The 3rd day, voila it works again. You can use this "formula" to lower dosage, too.

Always be dubious when people offer up "advice" like that without one shred of evidence as to why it would work like that. I mesn if they can show some physiological evidence of any such a sweet spot would exist and why taking more actually reduces it's effectiveness then fair enough, but usually they don't. Ivmesn there would need to exist some sort of negative feedback loop between dose and effect.

What Slow Mobus is talking about (kindling effect) and tollerence going up fast even after a break is different as that's a documented scientific fact with opiods but what this Reddit guy is saying sounds just like unsubstantiated nonsense unless he can prove to you that it isn't

 

[Fresco]

46h after last dose (3.5g) : Nothing serious to note, low energy, a bit leg pain (took 3 *2mg Loperamid in the last 24h, though). Sleep wasn't so awesome yesterday, but I usually sleep shitty anyway. It is now another kind of shitty sleep, but nothing to wine about.

Overall the feeling is like I took a crappy dissociative RC, which is also sedating. (nothing like DCK, though )

Sounds aboot right. Kratom is a piece of cake to withdraw from

 

[Ziiirp]

Piece of cake I wouldn't say, but given all the horror stories I got 2 assumptions :

1. People, that get severe WD symptoms from Kratom have taken pharmaceutical Opiates for a certain amount of time before switching to Kratom, which worsens the symptoms significantly

2. Some WD reports are pure lies, i.e. pharma-sponsored (you won't find them here, rather on the sheeple-mainstream-boards)

To resume : I don't glorify Kratom abuse, but as long as you stay in reasonable dose boundaries, the withdrawal is not everyday-life threatening at all.

 

[Slow_Mobius]

Piece of cake I wouldn't say, but given all the horror stories I got 2 assumptions :

1. People, that get severe WD symptoms from Kratom have taken pharmaceutical Opiates for a certain amount of time before switching to Kratom, which worsens the symptoms significantly

2. Some WD reports are pure lies, i.e. pharma-sponsored (you won't find them here, rather on the sheeple-mainstream-boards)

To resume : I don't glorify Kratom abuse, but as long as you stay in reasonable dose boundaries, the withdrawal is not everyday-life threatening at all.

Agree. Except i would throw extracts in there too. I've noticed that some people who complain about really bad kratom WD that's more similar to heroin WD symptoms are using extracts. I'm not entirely convinced that many of the "extracts" on the market are actual kratom extracts, though.

It can also get pretty bad if you have a crazy habit, but who wouldn't expect that. All-in-all, I'll take WD from a moderate kratom habit over WD from caffeine. I actually had horrible leg cramps from CT caffeine WD that were way worse than the mild RLS and cramping I got from kratom WD.

 

[Mycophile]

Always be dubious when people offer up "advice" like that without one shred of evidence as to why it would work like that. I mesn if they can show some physiological evidence of any such a sweet spot would exist and why taking more actually reduces it's effectiveness then fair enough, but usually they don't. Ivmesn there would need to exist some sort of negative feedback loop between dose and effect.

What Slow Mobus is talking about (kindling effect) and tollerence going up fast even after a break is different as that's a documented scientific fact with opiods but what this Reddit guy is saying sounds just like unsubstantiated nonsense unless he can prove to you that it isn't

Well I do think that in my experience too much Kratom can have negative effects because you essentially overdosed and I've killed highs before by taking too much but not in the course of less than 45 mins so that's the difference and maybe that just isn't possible.

I know that from having taken too much many times and I don't think a lot of proof is required to guess that if you take way too much it might not be enjoyable and the side effects might overpower the good effects, and I think it's true that everyone has their own unique sweet spot based on many factors.

I'm not saying who's right or wrong.

I'll take advice from many places and see what I can learn from everyone.

I guess all I can do is keep experimenting with different doses.

I have a hard time believing that I fooled myself into feeling high, but I do also question whether or not it's physically possible to feel Kratom's effects after only 20 mins so it could perhaps be the case.

It's just frustrating.

Maybe next time I'll just jump to closer to my old doses and figure that my tolerance is permanently messed up.

Or I could try to take it on an empty stomach, but I don't like doing that as it gives me side effects and I don't like starving myself.

 

[Fresco]

Piece of cake I wouldn't say, but given all the horror stories I got 2 assumptions :

1. People, that get severe WD symptoms from Kratom have taken pharmaceutical Opiates for a certain amount of time before switching to Kratom, which worsens the symptoms significantly

2. Some WD reports are pure lies, i.e. pharma-sponsored (you won't find them here, rather on the sheeple-mainstream-boards)

To resume : I don't glorify Kratom abuse, but as long as you stay in reasonable dose boundaries, the withdrawal is not everyday-life threatening at all

Great points all around.

I agree with #1 for the most part.

#2 I slightly disagree with, because I know there's some guys who messed with extracts, and those can give you almost the same WD symptoms as regular opiates can. Thats why you shouldnt mess with extracts

 

[Mycophile]

Today I jumped up to 12 grams and at least I'm feeling more than I had before.

I'd started with 9 on an empty stomach and started to feel decent but then it just turned into irritability, so I ate and took another 3.

Now I feel pleasantly relaxed but not the kind of great stimulant opioid effect I'd come to expect when I used to use it at ridiculous doses of 16 grams which I never should have allowed to get that high.

I guess perhaps the kindling effect could be going on (Thanks Slow-Mobius)...as it at least the negative side effects or irritability and general crappiness that I'd had on the 9 grams disappeared after another 3.

I guess I probably did permanently screw up my tolerance so I'll just make my next dose 16 grams like it used to be and see what happens.

If it keeps not working then maybe somehow Kratom just doesn't work for me anymore, but I've never heard of that happening for anyone unless they were users of hard opiates which I'm not.

It's not like if it doesn't that a drug no longer working for someone is some great tragedy, but by the relaxed buzz I've got going on now I guess it still does something, if not necessarily what it used to.

I should never have let my tolerance get so high.

Has anyone here ever heard of a case of someone who DOESN'T use hard opiates have Kratom just completely stop working for them?

 

[Mycophile]

Always be dubious when people offer up "advice" like that without one shred of evidence as to why it would work like that. I mesn if they can show some physiological evidence of any such a sweet spot would exist and why taking more actually reduces it's effectiveness then fair enough, but usually they don't. Ivmesn there would need to exist some sort of negative feedback loop between dose and effect.

What Slow Mobus is talking about (kindling effect) and tollerence going up fast even after a break is different as that's a documented scientific fact with opiods but what this Reddit guy is saying sounds just like unsubstantiated nonsense unless he can prove to you that it isn't

Since you asked, this poster did in fact produce a lot of science to what he was saying.


Again, I don't know who is right or wrong, perhaps both of them have truth in what they are saying, which is why I like comparing posts between posters, whether they are on the same site or different sites.

Here was his last post which I found interesting:

I'm going to get a little sciencey, but I'll explain it well, promise:
The amount of time to peak concentration is not the amount of time to any concentration. Peak means there's as much of it in your blood as there possibly can be. This is true with anything you put into your body, and is dependant on many factors like dosage, food in the stomach, how well your small intestine absorbs it, metabolism, and the coconcurrance of other substances in your body. If you look up "half-life" on Google it will list many sets of initials that probably won't mean much to you, but they stand for things like "time to peak concentration" and the metabolic half life (the time it takes to metabolize half of the dose, then it continues to eliminate half of what remains in the same amount of time as the first half. I.e. you take 30mgs of a medication with a half life of about 4 hours. This means 15mg will remain at 4 hours, 7.5mgs at 8 hours, 3.75mgs at 12hrs, etc. ) The half life and time to peak plasma concentration will be written in hours or minutes, followed by a +/- and another number. This +/- is the time that is added to or subtracted from the half life/time to peak depending on the person and other factors previously mentioned. Mitragynine's (the main alkoloid of kratom) time to peak plasma concentration is .83 +/-.35 hrs, or 51 minutes, + or - 21 minutes. So peak can be reached as soon as 30 minutes or as late as 72 minutes and anywhere in between. If peak can be reached in 30 minutes, then obviously a decent amount of the stuff is in your blood in 20 minutes.
Placebo effect certainly happens to people, but there's science proving thats not the case here. I'll link the study below to look at if you're interested.
Tolerance is a weird thing. It usually builds slowly and reduces quickly with kratom, but with anything you put in your body it eventually hits a point where some tolerance becomes permanent. If someone takes say, an antidepressant for a few years and increases dose with time, once they stop for a long period of time, tolerance will go down. But depending on the amount and length of time used, they may never be able to take the minimum dose and achieve desired effects again.
10 months is a long time, and "permanent tolerance" is usually pretty low. So I'm not sure that's the problem. Kratom is a plant and alkaloid content varies greatly from strain to strain, and more importantly, crop to crop and area to area. The vendor may have received a low-alkaloid crop or could have changed suppliers/farmers since 10 months ago. Im willing to bet that is what's going on here.
Agmatine slightly helped to slow the build of tolerance when I was taking oxycodone daily, but I had to take about 2500mg daily before it did anything at all. I haven't had much luck with the other things you mentioned, but I have found that taking cimetidine (tagamet) greatly increases the analgesia and mood lifting effects for me. I can actually cut my dose to 75% with 200mg (one pill). However, taking 400+ mg and taking it daily will hinder it by causing a too little stomach acid. With too little stomach acid, your body can't properly digest and metabolize it. If you only take cimetidine twice a week you shouldn't have this problem though. *Tip: Here in PA, cimetidine is available OTC in 60ct for $5 at Walmart, Tagamet brand is $12 for a 30ct at other pharmacies
Any chance you've started taking a daily medicine for heartburn, like Nexium or Prilosec in the last 10 months? That would obviously cause low stomach acid. There's also some reports that certain preservatives in food can hinder absorbtion in the intestines. Not sure which ones or how accurate that is though, I read about it sometime last year.
If you made it this far, then I certainly hope I've provided you with some useful information and offered some ideas that will help you out.
Study of mitragynine in man:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425236/

 

[Slow_Mobius]

@Mycophile it's not about whether or not it's possible for you to feel kratom 20 minutes after dosing. And alcohol is absorbed differently btw. With T&W kratom, you slowly extract alkaloids from the root before it can even be absorbed, and mitragynine analogues take extra time to cross the blood brain barrier because they're a PGP substrate iirc. So even at peak blood concentration, it may take additional time to feel it. And the In the study they're giving people aqueous mitragynine on an empty stomache--not T&W powder. Those number are going to be bigger for T&W powder.

Anyways, the effects you describe have basically 0 correlation with what your blood concentration of kratom alkaloids will be. If you're feeling high 20 minutes after dosing and the high goes away another 20 minutes later, the "high" was at least partly the pavlovian effect. I'm not saying everytime you get high it's a placebo. I'm saying that if you're high is coming and going 20-40 minutes after dosing, it's at least partly a placebo in that very specific circumstance.

I don't think there's much else for to add. To summarize, if your high vanishes 40 minutes after dosing, the most logical explanation, based on what you've said, is that the "high" was partly a pavlovian response. Sounds like your tolerance is high again which is why you're having trouble getting anything out of your kratom. The conditions in the study you cited are very different from consuming powder, unless you're drinking a very well prepared kratom tea on an empty stomache