Kratom and 7oh Tapper, Withdrawal

[Hrecoveryfool]

After being off everything, 100%, nothing. I was stupid and used Kratom again with 7OH. After 2.5 months of use, I found myself in the familiar spot. Not wanting to be on these, both because of effects and money. I used them because of boredom, no pain issues. I do believe the reason people "use" is a catalyst on how the withdrawal is. For instance, if people used kratom for pain management, that is different then people who use Kratom for the high effect, versus someone who used it for anxiety control. Use was extracts, powder, capsules, 7OH shots, and the tabs. All varying on the day. To get it somewhat at a manageable amount:

1) I tapered kratom powder 20+gpd, to capsules at 8gpd. Capsules work for me when trying to maintain, tapper, and quit.
2) Used 7oh to come off the kratom. I wanted to give body the chance to flush out all the 40+ alkaloids. Even with the 7OH, you can feel the lack of kratom in your body. This is a weird adjustment, where you physically are ok because of the 7OH, but mentally, just off. This is where use of 7OH can get absurd, quickly. Your mind is signaling wanting to get the high feeling, but the 7OH alone never really provided that by itself. However, the elimination of half life is so fast with 7OH, 2-3 hours, you end up mentally craving a "fix" more often than you do with kratom.
3) Black seed oil, vitamin C, turmeric, ashwghanda, magnesium will help during tapper, but do well on like day 3 or day 4 without anything. They help lessen symptoms but if you're looking for a miracle on the first day or 2, that's where people claim they don't do shit. That's because they help rebuild not replace. Hence, incorporating them during tapper, end of tapper, and after is recommended.
4) 7OH was continued to be used without kratom, then using the liquid shots of 7OH, use a dropper, and measure out the mg you desire that keeps you functioning. The trick is not to use it, unless you are hitting like 4-5 PAWS symptoms. That way you get use to some of life stuff. Journaling helped keep things in perspective during that time. Charting out times and dosage amounts is HUGE. Holds you accountable and be able to be proud of some of the progress.

I am on day 2 no Kratom, sleep was ok (6 hours sleep) with the help of OTC sleep aid but woke up to that body feeling we get and the anxiousness. Mind and body screaming for something but a lot is also routine. So if waking up and dosing immediately, waiting even an hour can be agonizing in the beginning. Sounds absolutely miserable, but at first it was just waiting longer without. Handling the dogs, my daughter, and all the early morning stuff. Coffee helps with Kratom WD symptoms but don't over do it causing the anxiousness feeling and higher blood pressure. I ended up eventually going to the gym and just getting on the treadmill for 10 minutes. Just doing something different then sitting around, thinking about how terrible you feel.

Will report back soon

 

[Hrecoveryfool]

update from yesterday, 72 hours no Kratom. Even with the 7oh, you can tell the withdrawal from the Kratom. The early morning like 3am-4am tossing and turning. Harder than the time I did before but I did not tapper as much off Kratom and basically CT. Hoping day 4 no Kratom I can feel the upside mentally. Kratom has such a long half life of 24 hours so knowing it’s basically flushed out of my body by day 4 (tomorrow) will be a bright spot. I do not use nor have I used any other substances for a handful of years. So my baseline is just the Kratom (lack of now) and the 7oh during the Kratom wd. I can still function and have an ok attitude about my responsibilities of life, so the 7oh has helped in many ways continue the flow of things. I can see how that can be a bitch to as well. However, my experience, for my body chemistry and whatnot, Kratom with its 40+ alkaloids, is to me harder then dealing with 1 thing (7oh). Since it’s only a partial antagonist on the opioid receptor, and the half life is so fast 2-3 hours tops. It’s mentally easier to me, especially because it does not give me any euphoria at the doses I’m doing. It never gave me that euphoria like Kratom anyway. Mixed with Kratom was glorious but now dosing that is just like a tool I’m using instead of searching, thinking I’m gonna get that euphoric rush…ain’t happening for me with 7oh, never did with crushing an entire edp shot (50mg). Sure it felt good but not like doing an OPMS black/gold label. So my connection to 7oh is not even one I super like anyway. But credit is due for it helping with Kratom WD. In the past, like my name says, I was a H user, so it weirdly reminds me of how frequently I need to use the 7oh because it is such a fast metabolized substance and the return you get on it is so underwhelming. That in itself is motivating me more not to be on any of that shit. It’s like, let me answer my cravings by using 7oh, not really get a reward for it, but let’s keep doing it haha. H got like that at the end too, where I was like fuck this shit but couldn’t stop (powerlessness). Anyway, I’m babbling, I appreciate all the messages and questions people have sent. I do want to say though, if people use Kratom and it helps them, that’s amazing. If you use and don’t abuse, that’s awesome too. It deff has its place for some people versus full on pharma stuff. Hate when people despise a natural plant because they get caught up with it and don’t define why they use it. I’m blessed to not have pain or needing it for anxiety, I used it because of boredom and addict thinking. So naturally, that’s a recipe for disaster. The time has come before another month or two pass and still not wanting to be doing it but doing it haha. “I’ll do it next week” or “once that long weekend comes I’ll stop. Been there and done that…keep it safe out there. I’ll report back soon

 

[Squeeeks]

Keep it up! You’re doing amazing! You’re helping me and many others!

 

[Hrecoveryfool]

Thanks. It’s been a wild ride. As the kratom left the body (over 3-4 days), the intensity to use 7oh increased dramatically. To keep that “manageable”, was a tough willpower/praying thing. I had to increase 7oh to function but also be aware of how powerful and addicting it is. In those days the plan was to use as little as possible 7oh with the edp shot and use a 1ml dropper. Each 1ml dropper is 1.6mg 7oh. I found during that time, it was not achievable to do. Had to make adjustments and be reasonable to I didn’t get the full on fuck it mode and do some kratom. Very very tricky. I did on day 4 without kratom, use 1.5g to include in the taper. I think it’s important to not beat yourself up and do what you need to do but journal usage, hold yourself accountable. I am in a much better physical/mental state now that I didn’t rush it. I’m on day 5 no kratom, and using the 1mg dropper a few times per day as needed. I broke through a lot of the behavior times I would use, to allow to build new habits during those time. Example, hold off on morning dosages, go to the gym first, eat first. That’s huge for me. The morning was always the hardest, the 2nd hardest was like that mid day slump around 1pm, and if I get past 330pm, Ive been like fuck it let me just wind down with some ashwghanda, thenine, and kava (made my own - deff not one of those chill people who use kava or make it ever). It did get me past the late night craving and allow for some good sleep.

At this point, I can feel some natural replacing of motivation and balancing, but that every few hours analyzing the body and craving to just feel a bit better. This to shall pass, and when I choose to do something else for that hour, all of a sudden it’s 3 hours later past that feeling and you just keep pushing back that normal dosage time.

Today: slept 7 hours, woke up at 4am (not abnormal for me), journaled, prayed, drank some good coffee, took my Magnesium, vitamin d, vitamin C 2g dose, Tylenol, tumeric. Waited 2.5 hours, to do less than half the dropper of edp (1g 7oh) and off to the gym. For me at this point, small small wins, and delaying any micro dosage of 7oh is a big deal. When I was at this point last time, I noticed after a bit, the micro dosages of 7oh weren’t really doing anything but providing that mental blanket of “taking something”. So I’m not rushing it, but I can feel from experience I’m approaching that time period if that makes sense.

I do agree, kindling is a thing. Some people jump no problem, my history is 8 years ago, H user with fent in it, so detox is a legit fearful thing. During that withdrawal from that shit, I did not have comfort meds so it’s almost like PTSD. This although miserable, I keep reminding myself I’m not shitting myself, or can’t even get out of bed, although sweating a bit, not drenched then crazy shivering like that. Anyone who has went through H withdrawal, comfort meds or not, knows that depth of despair and depression. This experience with the taper, I’m at the fucking gym, I drove here and have to be around the public hahaha. So although not great feeling, I can realize, it’s been way way worse. No chance I would ever be writing on here if I was in H wd. So again, small small wins, hour by hour, day by day. My brain wants the instant fix cause of what I was putting it through, so I’m having to reteach myself delayed gratification and time. Not the easiest thing but do able.

Best to luck of all and I truly wish everyone there own success whatever that is for today

 

[Hrecoveryfool]

Updating from above…no kratom no 7oh, 6 days. The only thing I’ve been taking is magnesium, black seed oil that also has D3 and K2 vitamins in it, tumeric, and at night melatonin. Worked all week (not fun) and had many family responsibilities. Very tough at some points and not a big deal at other times. Had some stomach stuff, chills, sweats, general blah feeling. I hated hearing that on these posts cause that’s what I feared and hated the most. Noted above 8 years ago withdraw from H (w/fent), no comfort meds, was a fuckin trainwreck…so I’ll forever be scared from anything opiate kind of withdrawal. That being said, on the other side of this and out of acute kratom/7oh wD, this is by far less than that shit, but naggingly annoying and the physical/mental symptoms are certainly a thing. However, I’ve noticed, with H withdrawal, it just progressively got more intense as every hour came on…with kratom/7oh WD, it has a peak of intensity at the 2 day mark. If you tapered, like I did, and let kratom come out (24 hour half life), and responsibly can use low dose of 7oh (half life of 2 hours)…by the time you come of the low dose 7oh, the WD comes on faster but leaves a hell of a lot faster than Kratom with the many other alkaloids. Anyway, if this idiot can do it, so can anyone else. Here if anyone needs anything. It helped getting messages…so whoever is in the fight, im here.

 

[Quasimoto]

Congrats man, that's quite an achievement!

This is a topic that is not very well known or discussed, about how kratom alkaloid dependency is independent and does not cross over to cover each other. I was planning on making a thread about this topic to explore the mechanism and reasons behind it, and may end up doing that, don't want to derail your thread too much.

I first discovered this when I began using 7-OH about 18 months ago. I had been using kratom powder (30g or more per day) for 10 years, and my body began rejecting it. The side effects were so extreme it was really damaging my body, my skin, my brain, my liver, etc... I also started kratom to get off H/bupe, and to stay off long term.

I began using 7-OH and completely cut out kratom. I assumed it would cover most withdrawal symptoms, in fact I wasn't expecting any withdrawal at all. I was wrong. 7-OH covers the most severe symptoms, but not all of them. It stops the dope sickness, but some of the remaining symptoms of withdrawal are surprisingly bad, and they occur regardless of how much 7-OH or pseudo you use (this phenomenon also occurs with pseudoindoxyl, btw.) You can use all the 7-OH in the world and you will still feel these withdrawal symptoms from mit.

- I will be able to sleep, however it is incredibly disrupted sleep, waking up every 30-60 minutes, maybe get 3 or 4 hours total if I'm lucky.
- I will also have extreme nightmares and "drug dreams", as if I had gone cold turkey or something. The type of dreams I get in rehab from CT.
- I will experience very very heavy depression, as well as anxiety. The type of depression you get from a meth comedown.
- I will experience extreme fatigue and incessant yawning, but no teary eyes or sneezing.
- I will experience chills and low body temperature/sensitivity. Basically cold sweats, but without the sweats.

As well as a few other minor symptoms. But I won't experience any RLS, muscle pain, restlessness/agitation, sweating, or any flu like symptoms at all.

This all feels totally bizarre and unexpected, since I will feel the strong opioid effect from 7-OH and will be nodding, yet those withdrawal symptoms still occur. In fact, when this first occurred I was so confused as to why I was having these symptoms I thought I was having some medical issue, it took me a few days to realize that it was actually kratom withdrawal.

I believe mitragynine itself is the main culprit here, because I have experienced this with both powder's 40+ alkaloids, but also from pure isolated mitragynine. But the powder seems worse, particularly in the depression. Probably due to speciogynine, which is one of the more stimulating, dopamine, stim-like alkaloids.

Personally, if I was in your shoes, I would have done it the other way around. I need to use mit to get off 7-OH. I do not have the willpower to stop 7-OH without the aid of mitragynine.

I also am very curious if other traditional opioids would not cover the wds. I have heard stories while in detox for alcohol of people coming in with extreme kratom dependence and the doctors not being able to control their withdrawal symptoms with the typical protocol of suboxone and other auxiliary comfort drugs. Although, I presume a full agonist opioid would probably take care of most of it... but who knows.

Stay strong my friend, you're a beast! Fuck kratom man, it's a lot worse than people treat it.

 

[Hrecoveryfool]

Great points! I also was confused with 7oh use, that no matter what amount, it still did not cover all the wd symptoms of kratom leaving the body. When I was tapering off kratom before this thread, I experimented with what you were talking about at the end, the question, is it better to taper off kratom or low dose 7oh…I choose the 7oh purely because it was a shorter half life and was willing to deal with possible harder shorter wd. Not advisable even with a slow taper. However, it fit for me for the time I wanted to jump but agree possibly better for some people to jump off kratom tapper then a 7oh tapper.

Today and everyday free from being a slave to the dosing schedule is just amazing. I was like glued to the clock and constantly analyzing how I felt and thinking, if I just did a little I would feel better. Today (7 days off everything), no chills/sweats, poop is solid (which if you know is awesome), I have real energy, and real feelings that are good. Sleep is decent. The tapper, anyway you do it, absolutely helps with the post acute not lasting as long. I can’t really think of any mental or physical issues really that are lingering.

I am still taking the vitamin c, not huge doses, magnesium, thenine at night with ashwaghanda. Those really shine now where it just brings you down a notch, especially at night.

So please keep whatever thread going, this or yours. Only reason I started it was because of trying to locate one that gave specifics, and results was hard to find. Lots of good information everywhere, but never one where a person planned, executed, and came back on the other side. I made it a point to come back regardless if anyone commented but your input is valuable. Keep it going!!!