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Stimulants Khat extract - preparation and effects

sludgekatana

Bluelighter
Joined
Jul 11, 2023
Messages
23
Khat is a naturally occurring source of Cathinone and Cathine. I have some dry leaves and made an extract with ethanol. It's definitely psychoactive, but I only tried a small amount. Ideally I'd like to separate just the Cathinone, we'll see. It did crystalize when I let it dry the first time. Added ethanol back, now I have what looks like crystals separated out from a dark green liquid. Filtered off the liquid from the crystals and I have both saved, waiting to dry. Will report back on my success.

FYI the Khat is in the form of dried leaves.
 
I'd worry about the formation of inactive dimers from the ketones and amines with more workup.

This paper mentions that cathinone in khat is preserved upon drying, which implies to me that the dimer formation requires a solvent.

This other paper looks into the stability of mdpv, mephedrone, and naphyrone in bodily fluids, as well as the common solvents for chromatography, methanol and acetonitrile. Methanol and the human fluid samples induced degradation in a number of days, and many were at half potency or less by a month. Acetonitrile fared better, but it is toxic enough to not want to be eating it (it can metabolize into cyanide).

Likely cathinones degrade in protic solvents like water or alcohols. I would personally just dose the dried crude extract to preserve the potency the most.

If you are going to extract more from the leaves, maybe using an aprotic polar solvent like acetone would work.

Preparative chromatography would likely separate them, but if you have that skill in your toolbox, you would have already likely done that.
 
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Cathinone is mostly found in fresh twig's/ preperation's. And not very stable, Cathine is a degredation product of Cathinone.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S037907382030520X

Cathine however could be compared with ephedrine and be the preferable one. Apperently its also present in Ephedra sprout's a member posted.

Not everyone has high remarks for Ephedra extract, but back then I liked it. Chewing fresh khat though is another level, surprisingly euphoric with a slight emphatogenic edge. Great for socialicing.
 
I'd worry about the formation of inactive dimers from the ketones and amines with more workup.

This paper mentions that cathinone in khat is preserved upon drying, which implies to me that the dimer formation requires a solvent.
Hey we have to contradicting paper's. My assumption was based on that sciencedirect link. But before that it was the info user's and later internet gave.

The science paper is from 2021, the NCBI research from 2009. The pro's, Somalian's/ Eritrean's alway's said only fresh leaves work, hence the Banana leave wrap. To keep the moist in and as fresh as possible. So no clear answer about the true stability of Cathinone in Khat.

One that stand's out is that over here only fresh Khat/ Qat or ectract's are illegal while dried Khat is legal. But as that was a gouvernement decision you can asssume its not science based. (they made Mushroom's illegal but forgot to include the Truffle's the can form)
 
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Hey we have to contradicting paper's. My assumption was based on that sciencedirect link. But before that it was the info user's and later internet gave.

The science paper is from 2021, the NCBI research from 2009. The pro's, Somalian's/ Eritrean's alway's said only fresh leaves work, hence the Banana leave wrap. To keep the moist in and as fresh as possible. So no clear answer about the true stability of Cathinone in Khat.

One that stand's out is that over here only fresh Khat/ Qat or ectract's are illegal while dried Khat is legal. But as that was a gouvernement decision you can asssume its not science based. (they made Mushroom's illegal but forgot to include the Truffle's the can form)
That paper makes more sense. It shows about a fivefold loss of cathinone in dried khat, but it seems relatively stable after it dried.

One quibble, but pubmed and science direct are not journals, they are publishing conglomerates with a portfolio of journals from high quality to predatory. The paper you posted and the 2010 Chappell paper I posted were both in Forensic Sciences International. The paper looking at synthetic cathinone stability I posted was Frontiers Chemistry.
 
One quibble, but pubmed and science direct are not journals, they are publishing conglomerates with a portfolio of journals from high quality to predatory. The paper you posted and the 2010 Chappell paper I posted were both in Forensic Sciences International. The paper looking at synthetic cathinone stability I posted was Frontiers Chemistry.
Ehh ... can you kinda simplify that in layman term's.

And include how NCBI, which is linked to PUBMED, relates to that to. my impression was that on NCBI you mostly find published research.

For Khat the stop of degradation after drying could explained by the deactivation of the responseable enzymes in fresh plant matter. Like in the proces of Tea making.
 
Ehh ... can you kinda simplify that in layman term's.

And include how NCBI, which is linked to PUBMED, relates to that to. my impression was that on NCBI you mostly find published research.

For Khat the stop of degradation after drying could explained by the deactivation of the responseable enzymes in fresh plant matter. Like in the proces of Tea making.
NCBI is the national center for biotechnology information. They have databases for a lot of biological tasks, and pubmed is a database of papers (irrespective of journal). When you look at a link to pubmed you can then access the paper at its original journal (though some people will deposit free copies of their papers on pubmed).

You mentioned a sciencedirect paper, sciencedirect (and elsavier) are big publishing companies that own a whole portfolio of journals each.

What really matters for doing a vibe check on a paper is the journal it is published in. A paper in Forensic toxicology can have a sciencedirect link because they own forensic tox. That paper will also appear as an entry on pubmed as a resource for people trying to perform literature searches.

Lemme know if you want me to clarify any of this.

One issue with the paper i posted is that it is a forensics paper. They don't care about drug stability with regards to getting a proper intoxicating dose, they care about being able to detect the compounds.
 
NCBI is the national center for biotechnology information. They have databases for a lot of biological tasks, and pubmed is a database of papers (irrespective of journal). When you look at a link to pubmed you can then access the paper at its original journal (though some people will deposit free copies of their papers on pubmed).

You mentioned a sciencedirect paper, sciencedirect (and elsavier) are big publishing companies that own a whole portfolio of journals each.

What really matters for doing a vibe check on a paper is the journal it is published in. A paper in Forensic toxicology can have a sciencedirect link because they own forensic tox. That paper will also appear as an entry on pubmed as a resource for people trying to perform literature searches.

Lemme know if you want me to clarify any of this.

One issue with the paper i posted is that it is a forensics paper. They don't care about drug stability with regards to getting a proper intoxicating dose, they care about being able to detect the compounds.
Something that some DIY searching will make clear are the distinction's between a journal, paper, article and published research. Hey i am Dutch so it will expand my understanding of English.

Sciencedirect linked me to PlumX, who also have the paper and a link to sites that citated it and PubMed was one.

But on Khat the info is clear, when fresh Khat is dried immediatly it preserves Cathinone, which remain's stable after.
They use drying at room temp and with heat. Not freeze drying. But at a faster pace then natural slow drying.
My guess is that allow's the enzyme's to convert the Cathinone as the level's dropped so extreme.

Btw both the paper I linked to ScienceDirect and the PubMed one are Forensic Science. The NCBI one on synthetic Cathinone's, also.
 
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That paper makes more sense. It shows about a fivefold loss of cathinone in dried khat, but it seems relatively stable after it dried.

One quibble, but pubmed and science direct are not journals, they are publishing conglomerates with a portfolio of journals from high quality to predatory. The paper you posted and the 2010 Chappell paper I posted were both in Forensic Sciences International. The paper looking at synthetic cathinone stability I posted was Frontiers Chemistry.

(Note that the paper that @emkee_reinvented linked is the exact same paper I linked in my original comment. Not only is it the same paper, its the same url 🤔.)

Yeah I had some qualms about it (particularly the tiny sample size and the source itself), but the point in sharing was mainly to illustrate the well-known phenomenon that cathinone content decreases dramatically upon drying.
 
(Note that the paper that @emkee_reinvented linked is the exact same paper I linked in my original comment. Not only is it the same paper, its the same url 🤔.)

Yeah I had some qualms about it (particularly the tiny sample size and the source itself), but the point in sharing was mainly to illustrate the well-known phenomenon that cathinone content decreases dramatically upon drying.
You don't have doubts about the drying teknique? Those Somalian's were convinced only fresh work's.

But maybe a better drying methode, freeze drying came first, would preserve most of the Cathinone. Is chemicly produced Cathinone stable? And are enzymes the ones degrading, ifso inactivating them would stop the proces,
 
This other paper looks into the stability of mdpv, mephedrone, and naphyrone in bodily fluids, as well as the common solvents for chromatography, methanol and acetonitrile. Methanol and the human fluid samples induced degradation in a number of days, and many were at half potency or less by a month. Acetonitrile fared better, but it is toxic enough to not want to be eating it (it can metabolize into cyanide).
There is also a mention about degradation of Khat being caused by heat and sunlight, nothing about drying so you might be right.

Unless they also wrote they had an special tempature controlled, free from sunlight sample?
 
There is also a mention about degradation of Khat being caused by heat and sunlight, nothing about drying so you might be right.

Unless they also wrote they had an special tempature controlled, free from sunlight sample?
¨Cathinone can be extracted from Catha edulis, or synthesized from α-bromopropiophenone (which is easily made from propiophenone). Because cathinone is both a primary amine and a ketone, it is very likely to dimerize, especially as a free base isolated from plant matter.¨

"The biophysiological conversion from cathinone to cathine is to blame for the depotentiation of khat leaves over time."

Just 2 quote's from wiki, but as they also mention chemically produced its very much like Meth-Cathinone (or Ephedrine). Which are not free-base but salt form's probably. So if you can also un free-base it. Cathinone preservation from it seems possible.

Keeping the temp constant at ... ? Free from light exposure and stopping the biophysiological conversion.
And the the faster the better it seems. Prevent dimer forming, and you have Cathinone.
 
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As far as I know chemical cathinone is stable as a (hcl) salt in powder form.

Apparently freebase and or in solution tends to dimerize and racemize I wouldn't trust the freebase for any amount of time longer than necessary.
 
And yes a bromopropiophenone reacted with ammonia forms cathinone and methcathinone with methylamine.

The legal high craze started with çathinone capsules available under the counter in Israeli convenience stores under the name "hagigat" meaning "happy pill" IIRC.

Then the neodove line sub-coca, sub-coca 2, etc.
Speculation was a big thing for a long time until gcms testing as none of the actives were listed.

Than that Israeli boy cranking out the cathinones, including 4mmc, invented or rediscovered by kinetics (sp?) On the hive in 2004 I think.

The thread is still out there with a Google search. Try kinetix.
 
Dr Z ... my introduction was before internet, through a news item bout Somalian's selling it in bundles at central train stations. Not long after a vendor was found. Meth-Cath stories later on showed up on internet, and its effects seemed somewhat simular. Still interested in that methylated version.

4-MMC well it sounded just too good I declined, let it pass on, knowing what would happen after a first taste. But Methylone was shining, thanks to who thought that one up.
And as edit: ban the men who outbanned it. Could have been a perfect alternative for Alcohol, nothing alike but more rewarding and certainly more forgiving. And like Khat a good social lubricant. With added emphatogenic properties.

The Hyve is indeed one of or the earliest source of info with Erowid and Bluelight, and went quite deep too a.o. on synthesis, but att i was merely a lurker.

In Israel you still can/ could get fresh Khat smoothies on the street in Khatetaria's, as long as its not processed its (or was) legal.
 
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