Dissociatives Ketamine Cramps

[pnillyg]

Looking for advice on my current situation and hopefully info to avoid this happening again.
So, I use ketamine 150mg sublingual 3 x daily as prescribed. This has gone on for months and has really helped with my opiate/kratom/benzo use to where im currently not dependent on anything. Then recently i started using it intranasally. About 0.5-1 gram a day for 2 weeks. I ended up in the ER with the worst pain i had ever felt in my abdomen. They said that my gallbladder was inflamed or something like that. Assuming it was from the increase in ketamine use + the prolonged use of the sublingual troches. It was probably the intranasal use though. My questions are:
1. What the hell was that I’ve heard of k cramps but didn’t realize they were that gnarly. Like was it just my gallbladder or is that from other inflammation as well.
2. Ketamine keeps me off of benzodiazepines and opiates so if i did want to reintroduce the lozenges, when would be a safe time to do that?
3. Would the lozenges be the safest way to re-introduce the ketamine? (I usually let them dissolve and then spit out after effects kick in where with nasal its much harder to not ingest anything since i can only spit so much of the drips.)
4. Do we think it was from prolonged use of troches catching up to me or the higher insufflated dosages that have been recently introduced?

Looking for some K expertise here, much appreciated.

 

[Esperighanto]

Do we think it was from prolonged use of troches catching up to me or the higher insufflated dosages that have been recently introduced?

I've done less than an ounce all together of ket and analogs, but I've been very close with tons of ketheads over my life, just as background here. The doses of ketamine you've mentioned consuming are genuinely in the problematic territory of dosing, due to the side effects of toxicity, leading to things like bladder damage and ket cramps. I never exceeded ~half a gram per day for the most part at my heaviest usage, and ketamine felt significantly more toxic than PCP.

My personal dive into the literature for studies on this don't even begin to approach the territory of small time frame/high mg dosing like you partake in, so all I have to go off of is the good old street lore surrounding arylcyclohexylamines. Arylcyclohexylamines overall have pretty diverse toxicity, and while ketamine and friends can seem non-harmful, we even have a stickied post in this focus forum about the dangers associated. While a couple things can cause increases in toxicity (such as a 3'-HO substitution) I was always told by older ketheads that the street lore surrounding these were that the more mg of any arylcyclohexylamine you consumed, the more toxicity, so 45mg of ketamine may be weaker than 15mg of 3-MeO-PCP, but it would still be more toxic, according to street lore.

I know that's the bro science of drugs, but sometimes I think it may tragically be the best thing we have to just go "well the oldheads claim x, literature hasn't approached this due to reason y, so the answer to the question is a fat shrug with some street lore". Wish I had a more solid answer here, and good luck with your recovery from opioids and benzos!

 

[pnillyg]

Thank you for the insight on everything. Appreciate it big time!

 

[dopamimetic]

So, I use ketamine 150mg sublingual 3 x daily as prescribed. This has gone on for months and has really helped with my opiate/kratom/benzo use to where im currently not dependent on anything. Then recently i started using it intranasally. About 0.5-1 gram a day

You get ketamine scripted at 150mg x3 daily and for take home? Fuck now I am jealous. In my country of origin it's only Spravato, less than 100mg, for use only under supervision and for a finite amount of time as an antidepressant. Here in Mexico where I live now not even that is an option. I would (almost) kill to get legit K like you. Dissociatives are my drugs of choice and while I much needed to live sober for a while I still miss and crave the magic every day. In MX I can't just import RCs anymore.

But yeah K crams are gnarly. Only had them once, I usually dosed methoxetamine or later deschloroketamine and ordered only once a bigger quantity of ketamine, 25g and blew through this amount in just a couple of days. This gave me horrific gallbladder cramps. Don't know for sure but I think they might be, as the bladder irritation, be unrelated to the NMDA antagonism and rather be a consequence of introducing larger amounts of an arylcyclohexylamine into your system. The more potent RCs appear to be less toxic (at least by my personal experiences).

 

[pnillyg]

Yea I’m lucky with the script it’s very helpful and therapeutic when dosed correctly. Yea I’ve been team opiates for a long time but since getting into k my benzo and opiate use is almost null. That being said after this recent hospitalization I’m really struggling to obtain and worried that reintroducing the key even sublingual or in small doses will cause them to come back. Granted they came after about 3+ gs insufflated over 2 days + 9 over 2 weeks. Really need it again soon as my opiate cravings are coming back after they gave me morphine and Dilaudid in the er and I hadn’t had any opiates since my Ibogaine flood in August of last year. Been off kratom a few 6ish weeks as well… I’m feeling stuck

 

[Esperighanto]

I’m feeling stuck

You've essentially painted yourself as being at a fork in the road pertaining to addiction: Addicted to opioids/benzos, or dissos. I'd choose dissos personally, but the amounts you've been using indicate you probably can't have a healthy relationship with, at least, arylcyclohexylamines. Have you ever considered diversifying into other, non-ACH dissos?

I think the real question should be which addiction or what form of addiction can you swap these out for that's hopefully less damaging to your body.

 

[pnillyg]

You've essentially painted yourself as being at a fork in the road pertaining to addiction: Addicted to opioids/benzos, or dissos. I'd choose dissos personally, but the amounts you've been using indicate you probably can't have a healthy relationship with, at least, arylcyclohexylamines. Have you ever considered diversifying into other, non-ACH dissos?

I think the real question should be which addiction or what form of addiction can you swap these out for that's hopefully less damaging to your body.

Correct I’m looking for a vice that’s least damaging to my body. i’ve never heard of the non-– ACH so I’m gonna look into that. Nitrous is super helpful and not as hard on my body, but the problem is it’s just such short-lived. I have to go through so much of it… just not sustainable

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Ketamine permanently destroyed my body and ruined my life. IV crack and heroin for twice as long didn’t cause me as many problems

It’s the most toxic drug I’ve ever done. Destroys the organs faster than any drug I can think of, worse than alcohol.

These two threads chronicle the horrors of ketamine organ damage and link many scientific studies on it

☠ WARNING ☠ Thread '*WARNING* Chronic ketamine/dissociative use causes bladder/organ damage'

May 19, 2019

EDIT: The first thing I want to add to this thread is that if you have any odd sensation whatsoever in your bladder, difficulty with strong stream, or pressure. STOP YOU ARE LIKELY DOING PERMANENT DAMAGE

2nd: If you are having pain, the most important thing to halt it is to switch to this diet linked below. You will only get worse if you keep eating caustic foods and already have an issue.

https://www.ichelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/food-list.pdf

For those "wondering" if its just ketamine or other dissociatives, here is a paper documenting the same effects from...

• LucidSDreamr
• Replies: 493
• Forum: Psychedelic Drugs

• 
• 

⫸STICKY⫷ Thread 'Why you shouldn't abuse Ketamine (nsfw photos)'

Dec 13, 2020

(TL-DR: look at the pics of what i pissed out and dont abuse ket)

I thought I had lost these photos but I'm glad I found them. I've been wanting/meaning to make this thread for ages.
1. To remind me never to go back
2. To remind me how far I've come and
3. To share/warn/educate others who may go or be going down the same path.
These were taken between March and July 2016, apart from the very last one which was actually taken in October 2018!
Note: there was actually WAY WORSE stuff that came out of me, before and during I was in rehab (June-July 2016) but I actually rarely took photos. I...

• jhjhsdi
• Replies: 225
• Forum: The Dark Side

• 
• 
• 

 

[pnillyg]

Ketamine permanently destroyed my body and ruined my life. IV crack and heroin for twice as long didn’t cause me as many problems

It’s the most toxic drug I’ve ever done. Destroys the organs faster than any drug I can think of, worse than alcohol.

These two threads chronicle the horrors of ketamine organ damage and link many scientific studies on it

☠ WARNING ☠ Thread '*WARNING* Chronic ketamine/dissociative use causes bladder/organ damage'

May 19, 2019

EDIT: The first thing I want to add to this thread is that if you have any odd sensation whatsoever in your bladder, difficulty with strong stream, or pressure. STOP YOU ARE LIKELY DOING PERMANENT DAMAGE

2nd: If you are having pain, the most important thing to halt it is to switch to this diet linked below. You will only get worse if you keep eating caustic foods and already have an issue.

https://www.ichelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/food-list.pdf

For those "wondering" if its just ketamine or other dissociatives, here is a paper documenting the same effects from...

• LucidSDreamr
• Replies: 493
• Forum: Psychedelic Drugs

• 
• 

⫸STICKY⫷ Thread 'Why you shouldn't abuse Ketamine (nsfw photos)'

Dec 13, 2020

(TL-DR: look at the pics of what i pissed out and dont abuse ket)

I thought I had lost these photos but I'm glad I found them. I've been wanting/meaning to make this thread for ages.
1. To remind me never to go back
2. To remind me how far I've come and
3. To share/warn/educate others who may go or be going down the same path.
These were taken between March and July 2016, apart from the very last one which was actually taken in October 2018!
Note: there was actually WAY WORSE stuff that came out of me, before and during I was in rehab (June-July 2016) but I actually rarely took photos. I...

• jhjhsdi
• Replies: 225
• Forum: The Dark Side

• 
• 
• 

I’d do dope if I had a safe supply but can only get bupe… I guess bupe or kratom is sounding like my only options besides benzos. Damn why do the best things have to be so damaging. Thank you for sharing those experiences/writing. I really just need something and I’m still trying to find what works. I guess adderall does too but the comedowns are brutal. Oy vey

 

[Esperighanto]

I’d do dope if I had a safe supply but can only get bupe… I guess bupe or kratom is sounding like my only options besides benzos. Damn why do the best things have to be so damaging. Thank you for sharing those experiences/writing. I really just need something and I’m still trying to find what works. I guess adderall does too but the comedowns are brutal. Oy vey

7-OH-Mitragynine, purified mitragynine, mitragynine pseudoindoxyl, tianeptine, ephedra sinica tea, coca tea, high potency kanna extracts, and blue/pink/white lotus concentrate tea are all things I'd advise you look into for scratching opioid, sedative, and stimulant itches a little more sustainably. Also, bupropion I bet you could get scripted, maybe even gabapentin or pregabalin which all could also help. Even something as mild as hydroxyzine would help this imo.

 

[Viraldrome]

only once a bigger quantity of ketamine, 25g and blew through this amount in just a couple of days.

Its scary how easy it is to power thru a massive amount. That vice special they went to vet and vet knocked out 500 pound horse with one gram. I snort a gram in twenty minutes. I know quitting is the only to get out of this alive. I cant moderate or control it and im sure bladder problems are next if i continue.

 

[HealingEnergy14]

Yea I’m lucky with the script it’s very helpful and therapeutic when dosed correctly. Yea I’ve been team opiates for a long time but since getting into k my benzo and opiate use is almost null. That being said after this recent hospitalization I’m really struggling to obtain and worried that reintroducing the key even sublingual or in small doses will cause them to come back. Granted they came after about 3+ gs insufflated over 2 days + 9 over 2 weeks. Really need it again soon as my opiate cravings are coming back after they gave me morphine and Dilaudid in the er and I hadn’t had any opiates since my Ibogaine flood in August of last year. Been off kratom a few 6ish weeks as well… I’m feeling stuck

At the very least you should try to drink lots of Green Thea. Good Green Thea has EGCG in it which helps your bladder out a ton. In my experience it can even reverse damage. (to an extent atleast, obviously I can't look into my bladder myself but the pain has become less while drinking it)

 

[LucidSDreamr]

At the very least you should try to drink lots of Green Thea. Good Green Thea has EGCG in it which helps your bladder out a ton. In my experience it can even reverse damage. (to an extent atleast, obviously I can't look into my bladder myself but the pain has become less while drinking it)

Don’tie to yourself. Nothing is going to prevent ketamine bladder damage.

Green teas contains caffeine which is a big no no for bladder cystitis; will just aggravate it more

 

[HealingEnergy14]

Don’tie to yourself. Nothing is going to prevent ketamine bladder damage.

Green teas contains caffeine which is a big no no for bladder cystitis; will just aggravate it more

Completely false. Have had uncomfortable cramps and pain while peeing that got resolved by drinking Green Thea during the day.

Now I wouldn't suggest to keep using ketamine but to say that the EGCG in Green Thea doesn't help against Cystitis is just not true.

Read this study for example; https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23260235/

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Completely false. Have had uncomfortable cramps and pain while peeing that got resolved by drinking Green Thea during the day.

Now I wouldn't suggest to keep using ketamine but to say that the EGCG in Green Thea doesn't help against Cystitis is just not true.

Read this study for example; https://pub med.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23260235/

Keep doing ketamine and drink your tea; it will totally block the bladder and liver damage %

Attenuation doesn’t mean curing or preventing. Also it’s a Chinese group; they are notorious for publishing bullshit.

The study has nothing to do with ketamine induced cystitis nor comments on egcg preventing the damage ketamine does

 

[HealingEnergy14]

Keep doing ketamine and drink your tea; it will totally block the bladder and liver damage %

Attenuation doesn’t mean curing or preventing. Also it’s a Chinese group; they are notorious for publishing bullshit.

The study has nothing to do with ketamine induced cystitis nor comments on egcg preventing the damage ketamine does

I am not saying to keep doing ketamine.

My point is that when you stop doing ketamine EGCG will have a positive impact on your bladder. This is well-known, there are plenty of other studies out there confirming that and multiple anecdotes to be found online from people having benefits drinking green tea to mitigate ketamine damage.

You are doomposting and I see you say more often there's no solution to this or that, yes I know life is tough. I'm struggling with Opioid and now Dissociative addiction too; I feel your pain.

There are ways to mitigate and prevent more serious damage from occuring though and even to heal ourselves; although we will never be what we were before.

I hope you don't see this as some dig at you because I've read a lot of your posts and appreciate you posting here, I wish you nothing but the best.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I am not saying to keep doing ketamine.

My point is that when you stop doing ketamine EGCG will have a positive impact on your bladder. This is well-known, there are plenty of other studies out there confirming that and multiple anecdotes to be found online from people having benefits drinking green tea to mitigate ketamine damage.

You are doomposting and I see you say more often there's no solution to this or that, yes I know life is tough. I'm struggling with Opioid and now Dissociative addiction too; I feel your pain.

There are ways to mitigate and prevent more serious damage from occuring though and even to heal ourselves; although we will never be what we were before.

I hope you don't see this as some dig at you because I've read a lot of your posts and appreciate you posting here, I wish you nothing but the best.

If you want to use egcg since there is some basic research showing it could have benefits; that’s good but I would use a supplement.

Green tea contains caffeine and you can check any bladder cystitis sub Reddit or resource and caffiene is at the top of the list of stuff to avoid.

 

[pnillyg]

Thank you my wizards.

 

[pnillyg]

Is the damage from ingestion or just from it being in your blood? So the administration method doesn’t change the amount of damage it’s doing?

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Is the damage from ingestion or just from it being in your blood? So the administration method doesn’t change the amount of damage it’s doing?

Ingestion method doesnt matter.