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k-holes: manifestations of desires or something deeper?

~*geNeRaTiOn E*~

~*geNeRaTiOn E*~

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mods, feel free to merge this in with the ketamine thread if you must but i wanted this to be a separate entity, at least for a little while, to garner more replies. please bare with me, this is going to take a lot of effort to explain (as with most things psychedelic/trip related ;)).

k-holes have always been something that i never questioned, everything i saw or felt always seemed like it was an organic occurrence and that my thoughts and subconscious were completely removed from everything i experienced. it wasn't until recently (my last 2 k-holes, to be exact) that i realized maybe, just maybe, my thoughts and subconscious desires were having an effect on my k-holes.

now, i still believe that k-holes do hold some deeper meaning that cannot be attained or understood whilst in a sober state but how much is influenced by what is going on in my brain? example: i had a profound discovery that a very good friend of mine is actually my soul-mate (not in the lovers sense), a cosmic twin if you will. he is the guy version of me but my total opposite, if that makes any sense; a yin and yang of sorts but we mesh so well and completely balance each other out even though we are so eerily similar. i truly believe (based on what i discovered in my k-hole) that we will forever remain friends and that we play a larger part in each others' lives than either of us recognize. i have no question in my mind that we are connected in a way that can only be described as cosmic. i cannot explain it any better than that.

(for those reading this next part that know who i'm talking about, please keep this info to yourself)

second example: i've been in a relationship with my current partner for a while now (about 8-9 mos) and while i enjoy our relationship (as does he), there is a lot of confusion due to certain complications. in my last 2 k-holes, this person has played a significant role in soothing my fears (i always become slightly panicked when i ingest large quantities of k which results in me going into a negative thought-loop; i eventually pull out of it by talking myself down or i emerge out of it naturally once the initial anxiety wears off) and helping me navigate said k-holes, the most recent one was us holding hands and walking through space in total awe and silence but the love i felt radiating through us was enough to warm my entire body. most of the time i'm not even thinking about him or anyone beforehand yet for some reason, he has appeared in my k-holes as my life-long partner, lover, friend and (in one instance we even had a family together; my child and a child that we shared...hella weird) everything felt right in the world during and afterward.

my most recent k-hole has left me with feelings that somehow we too are connected in ways neither of us can comprehend...yet. i'm not sure what the connection is or the meaning of the connection but it is so strong that it has left me wondering whether this is all the result of my subconsciously wanting to be with him on a more committed level or whether it was all supposed to happen this way anyway. i can't say i'm really a believer in fate (the scientist in me doesn't really allow it but the romanticist in me caves sometimes ;)) but what i have experienced recently has left me questioning with no real answers coming to light. the same connection i felt with my "cosmic twin" is the same connection i felt with my partner but i cannot for the life of me succumb to the fact that maybe, just maybe, he really is another one of my soul-mates (this time in the lovers sense) rather than some facade put in place by my desires. i will say one thing, there have been lots of incidences that have occurred in the span of our relationship that seem a little too coincidental but again, the whole rationale thing that happens in my head as a result of being a scientist makes me think i'm just crazy.

am i crazy? are k-holes manifestations of our desires/wishes/dreams or are they the key to understanding deeper meanings we would not be able to comprehend otherwise? i'm definitely going to discuss this with him when the time is right but i want to get a grasp on what is going on before i try to present it to him. this is all very...confusing.

i hope this made sense, if not i will gladly clarify to the best of my ability.

<3
 
the truth is that what you are allowed to believe in. The problem is being honest with oneself about what is allowed and what is projected by your desires. The answer is to know what it really is that you desire.
 
Well not wanna sound scientisty or anything but there is a really close relationship between the ketamine state and schizophrenia, it is not only explained in similar neurochemical effects but also psychological states and one thing about it is that coincedence and pattern-recognition is screwed up. If you say something like "too coincendental" that is the first thing that comes to mind! You CAN find a middle ground between chance, incidence, coincidence, romanticism, rationalism and love even though you might think about extreme terms that want to point to the answer to the question in the thread-title.

The truth is subjective like these guys say ^, you're making this up yourself and it is your whole being that tells you something, your subconscious but it may seem like even more than that. DMT also has a relationship with schizophrenia and I have experienced entities that communicated with me telepathically. I do not believe these can be externalized, but this is part of my fractured psyche becoming aware of the other part. There is something to gain there in terms of realization but there is a risk of starting to believe there is more to it than there actually is.

I'm not saying you're crazy or schizophrenic! I'm saying the drugs are :)
You are fine and the manifestation from within you we are discussing is as deep as need be! Use that at face value. And treasure what can come of it. Externalizing could negate this whole thing, don't waste your energy on trying to figure out the meaning and point of perspective in all of this. If you have a dream, we could all talk all day and night about what is real and what is not but in the end what matters is what you experienced.

<3
 
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i tend to over-analyze things when they don't make sense and being that this experience happened very recently i guess i'm still trying to decipher what it was i experienced. back to enjoying the experience instead of trying to interpret it.

what you said, solipsis, makes perfect sense, thank you :)

<3
 
generation e, I had a very similar experience during one of my first k-holes! i was with a girl whom i recently met and felt quite a fancy towards. we holed simultaneously and held hands, and i felt that we were - just as you said - cosmic twins! I knew at that point that our lives would be intimately entwined and that together we would do great things for the world.

Today, suffice to say the things that I was so sure of during that k-hole are far from the truth.

Solipsis, I'll second those thanks, you certainly shed some light onto my experience as well! As such, I'll stop there, just thought I'd share my similar story!:)
 
Any time!! <3

Tbh I want to give this just a tiny bit more opportunity to develop before merging...

you cut into a very interesting experience and phenomenon Gen E, I wonder what other people have to say?
 
When my girlfriend went into her first hole, by accident, she was definitely gone crazy.

The effects for her last nearly 12 hours...:| I have not a clue how that happened. Product was 100% pure as always. But, her effects of non normality were odd. Everything she saw was very sharpened, she could see through walls, she painted light with shadows, she felt like she could touch the ceiling while laying in bed. To top it off, my house is haunted, all of a sudden during a conversation, she blurted out "there are other people in this room, one is over there, one right here, and the other there.....and that one is a boy". Seemed like she was possessed to say that.

She finally got to sleep after being frightened the ketamine really fucked up her mind. The extreme effects should last 4 hours into the night!!!!! She went to work the morning and her sharpened vision was still there. She called me up still freaking out....it eventually went away later that day.

How to apply that to this thread, I don't know.....I just felt like it was somewhat relevant:)
 
to be clear, i wasn't asking for anyone to examine my particular experiences and shed some light on them, i was merely using them as examples to help others understand what i was asking. the question is meant to be applied to all k-holes in general, not just mine.

steaks, the only time i have k-holed simultaneously with my partner was not the time i experienced these feelings. both times he was very far away from me physically (the first time he was with family about 30 minutes away from his place where i was staying and this most recent time he was at home, 30 min away from my house where this occurred). as for my "cosmic twin," he doesn't even live in the same state as me AND i've never even met the dude (aside from my k-holes ;) we've talked on the phone, online, etc. though). granted, i think every human is connected but i think we both agree that there is something more to our connection beyond that. when i first tried to explain it to him, he thought i was batshit crazy but after i told him why i felt the way i did, he understood.

i looked up modal fictionalism and tried to comprehend what was being said but there is definitely a reason i never got into philosophy ;)
 
its just a position in discussion. simply put it is the a priory assumption that a possible world does not exist, while still keeping the benefits it may have to offer, and/or the function it performs in the existing, real world. Kants conception of God is a good example. While he accounts for all morals and their practical necessity and obligation by reasoning alone, God may still be used as a moral obligator beyond human reason. So we can follow them as if they were put down by God, but in reality they are solely dictated by human reason. He also functions as the assurance that doing good will be rewarded, but again, the reason for doing good lies in universal reasoning alone, although no guarantee for reward can be given reasonably. God just makes the good extra spicy. but stricly speaking he is not needed (he could just be fiction as well) to explain morality's claim at universality.

to put it even more clearly (but at the expense of accuracy): illusions can create very real effects in the 'real' world. the illusion, while not true in itself, gains a reality by influencing the believers' behaviours. By going about as if it is (may be) real, it becomes real, in its effects. for that reason i said in my first post that truth is what you are allowed to believe in. the trick is; you always have to leave room for the Other, in the form of possible doubt. otherwise one ends up in fanaticism/schizophrenia. if the Other 'agrees' to make it real with you, it becomes real, if he does not, the belief has to fall (painful). Life is but a dream we dream together.
 
Very intriguing azzazza :)
That is the position (although I didn't know the term) that I have taken in the debate about free will. I believe that free will is an illusion but I don't believe that admittance of fatalism necessarily has to implicate defaitism.
The rational willing part of consciousness is only a tiny fraction of a second behind after our true nature, the actual central consciousness that is a reactive reflective agent.
But it is absurd to "defy fate" because nothing matters anymore. It is still all attached to each other, you can't just cut loose. You have to play along with the illusion and surrender yourself in a totally different way.
If you catch my drift.

This point of view has been confirmed by enlightening experiences in which my awareness dissociated from my (re)actions. I felt like everything I did was suddenly without conflict and perfectly what I meant to do. I wouldn't do it any other way. Which is different from the ever correcting will we normally are controlled by. Regretting our past and projecting our future...
It may be a little counterintuitive at first that the ultimate goal is to live beyond your own will, but it has proven itself to me as the key to peace, freedom and happiness.
But as you may understand, this is something totally different from just crossing the street without looking, believing that the whole world will abide by you unconditionally.
 
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(at generation E) thats just philosophy. the idea is to make a position as strong and defined as possible regarding other (opposing) positions (we like building fortresses :)). also it has to be applicable to any field of inquiry (universality). unfortunately, such fortresses, while magnificently refined, go at the expense of accessibility (naturally).


edit: i can already hear the shrieks and screams of the analitics if they'd see what i just did to their purrty concept =D
 
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Solipsis said:
This point of view has been confirmed by enlightening experiences in which my awareness dissociated from my (re)actions. I felt like everything I did was suddenly without conflict and perfectly what I meant to do. I wouldn't do it any other way. Which is different from the ever correcting will we normally are controlled by. Regretting our past and projecting our future...
Click to expand...

hehe. i once defended the position "true free will is surrender to necessity" on my "de universa" (about everything) exam.
the culprit i'd say is desire. "the ever correcting will" as you call it is founded on desires we just think we want; but we wouldn't when we know what these desires really are/mean. hold on to this^ experience, because it explains things infinitly better then i ever will. another metaphor could be "to be stuck in the wheel of karma", as you say "disassociated from (re)actions"
though i'd have to note that if there is truly no form of freedom in Will, you'd be a robot determined by previous actions; which in turn have no basis since there was no choice. i hold that this freedom exists in saying yes or no to God/everything. though it is not just that simple, because one has to find out first why one chose the "no" before one can say yes. people have a reason to say no to Will.
i personally hold that free will exists, but not absolutely. it is always tempered by necessity, and therefor its not truly free; until it encompasses this necessity. then it became the higher synthesis of freedom and necessity that is free Will.
this is a difficult one, very difficult.
 
azzazza !? said:
its just a position in discussion. simply put it is the a priory assumption that a possible world does not exist, while still keeping the benefits it may have to offer, and/or the function it performs in the existing, real world. Kants conception of God is a good example. While he accounts for all morals and their practical necessity and obligation by reasoning alone, God may still be used as a moral obligator beyond human reason. So we can follow them as if they were put down by God, but in reality they are solely dictated by human reason. He also functions as the assurance that doing good will be rewarded, but again, the reason for doing good lies in universal reasoning alone, although no guarantee for reward can be given reasonably. God just makes the good extra spicy. but stricly speaking he is not needed (he could just be fiction as well) to explain morality's claim at universality.

to put it even more clearly (but at the expense of accuracy): illusions can create very real effects in the 'real' world. the illusion, while not true in itself, gains a reality by influencing the believers' behaviours. By going about as if it is (may be) real, it becomes real, in its effects. for that reason i said in my first post that truth is what you are allowed to believe in. the trick is; you always have to leave room for the Other, in the form of possible doubt. otherwise one ends up in fanaticism/schizophrenia. if the Other 'agrees' to make it real with you, it becomes real, if he does not, the belief has to fall (painful). Life is but a dream we dream together.
Click to expand...


Tim O'Brian does a good job of putting this idea into literary terms in "The Things They Carried". He describes a scene over and over about how his shot this guy in Vietnam. He describes how young the guy was, the shape of the hole in his head, etc. Then he tells you that he didn't actually kill him, but that the fiction of that conveys the emotion and experience that he had there better than the truth would.

BTW, I have recently began experimenting with K and DMT and am convinced, more than ever, that our reality as we experience it is either not true, or not the entire truth. I believe that everything in existense is more connected than the average person realizes or wants to believe.
 
K Holes are like Dreams

My first and only experience with K (100% I dried out myself), a spent the "K-hole" completely alone. I felt as if I was suspended or flying in space. Only a door was rendered visually. I was falling towards this door. It was my death. When I didn't go though, I figured it wasn't my time to go yet. This was very much like a dream. I am very much a dreamer and use my lucid dreams to their fullest potential almost on a nightly basis, so I don't really have much of a use for K, in that regard.

To the OP: I believe a k hole is very much a question of our own inner desires, and sometimes may be much more than that. Much like a dream can be, it can be prophetic and as real as we want it to be.
 
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