Is this the right thing I did? Or have I turned facilitator?

[ethnobot781]

Hey Folks,

I have a friendly acquaintance (a good friend of a relative I'm close to). He's addicted to co-codamol 8/500 (an OTC painkiller in the UK that's 8mg codeine phosphate and 500mg paracetamol aka acetaminophen).

His addiction is not a major one in the grand scheme of opioid addictions by any means. He discovered the pills took the edge off the depression after he gave up a moderate addiction to self-medicating with alcohol for anxiety. The most he takes is 20 tablets in a day, more usually 15.

This is only 120-160mg codeine daily but what concerns me is that it also 7.5-10g paracetamol. Hardly great news for his liver and I don't know how much he drank for how long before he gave up and started on the codeine either. He admits to concern about his paracetamol intake and named it as a factor in moderating his daily intake of pills.

This guy I haven't told much of my long term struggles with chronic pain and use/abuse of opioids and other substances since I don't know him well enough to trust him fully and also strongly get the feeling that he'd be constantly round on the scrounge for medicines of mine that I really need myself 8)

I agonised for a couple of weeks as to whether to teach him how to do a CWE on his co-codamol, figuring that he may use the reduction in paracetamol intake as a license to increase his consumption of OTC codeine in a vicious upward spiral. Today I finally made a decision and having taken in to consideration that since his daily intake has increased from 6-10 tablets over the few weeks since I was introduced to him and since whatever the risks opioid habits tend to follow an increasing pattern in susceptible users anyway, I rounded up the necessary bits and bobs in his flat and demonstrated the process on his dose for this morning.

I was sure I'd done the right thing in the interests of harm reduction earlier but I can't get rid of a few lingering doubts, especially since the guy called me later today to thank me with the words "cheers mate, now I take proper doses without worrying about the 'cetamol crap" and I have some foreboding, maybe even a little guilt for interfering... so I was wondering, would you, my fellow BL/TDSers have done the same? Or do you think I've stuck my nose in to someone else's habit and basically just been a facilitator - I know some people's livers are less susceptible to this kind of toxicity anyhow

Peace, Ethnobot

 

[qwe]

it's better for him to live and get better another day (or even not) than to kill his liver like that

if you made the opposite decision, it wouldn't be great for your conscience if his liver failed right? and it seems he'll spiral up in dose whether or not he has to take the APAP with it. he's using the CWE as an excuse to take more i bet. i'm guessing he'll stabilize around another dose though

 

[QuasiStoned]

^^^
I wholeheartedly agree with qwe.

 

[paranoid android]

You did the right thing by tellling gim how to do a CWE because you very well may have saved him from severe liver damage or posibly even death from liver failure. Codeine won't kill him unless he really overdoes it but APAP will.

So in the name of harm reduction you did the right thing so don't feel guilty about it. Even if he slides into addiction to stronger more addictive opiates thats not your choice to make for him.

You may also want to tell him to get the kind with aspirin and codeine in it instead of APAP with codeine since it's much easier on the liver before and after you do a CWE. Hardly any of the aspirin comes through the filters anyway since it's much less water soluble then APAP. That is if you have the kind with aspirin over there.

 

[Bojangles69]

Ethnobot thats really a great question that manifests itself in various different forms, not just with cold water extractions.

Ie. I once knew a kid who had just turned his life around and lost a great deal of weight after being obese throughout his entire youth. He had also started bodybuilding religously and we would get into conversations everyday at work about the supplements he was taking.

He'd find a new product like superpump 250 or some other worthless crap and I'd tell him it was a complete waste of time and he wouldn't gain a lb of muscle off it.
Being though as he was very dedicated and determined, and seemingly intelligent, I versed him on diet, hormones, steroids and all sorts of topics.

He became very interested in the idea of doing a cycle and I told him if he was able to get his body to a certain percentage (under 10% bodyfat) I'd help him. I did this because I knew it would take a while and I do support steroid usage when done the RIGHT WAY.

Well he got his body down to 10% about 9 months later so I did as I promised. Showed him how to mix and filter the oil, how to inject and aspirate, told him all the other pills he needed to take to keep his gains and stop gyno from forming.

He was perfect his first cycle and did great. Really impressed me and did everything properly, didn't have to deal with any depression afterwards and kept most of his gains.

In the same token, I had given him a piece of wisdom, to do GOOD with, same way you gave that person the formula for a CWE.

But you NEED to remain somewhat detached and understand you can only control other peoples behavoir to a certain degree.

About a year later I found out this kid had done 2 more cycles, and not only that but he had also been taking more, and focusing less and less on his diet.
Eventually he started stacking 4 different steroids at once, when his diet wasn't even in check, and he wasn't even taking anything for his liver anymore which is extremely important with orals.

Long story short, I taught this kid everything he knew about steroids. Yet due to his personality, and ONLY HIS personality he made serious decisions to fuck up his life. He stopped taking anti-estrogen pills and developed gyno, he became so obsessed about the idea that more was more not realizing that w/out a proper diet steroids are essentially worthless.

He went from turning his life around and being healthy, to me showing him how to cycle once and years later he had completely fucked up his body.
How was I suppose to know he would do that?

How are you suppose to know what your friend will do now that he knows how to CWE? Whether he starts abusing more, or can moderate his use, is completely irrelevant to YOUR LEVEL OF CHARACTER.

Could I have not shown the kid how to cycle? Sure. But guess what, when the desire is always there for more, the desire will be fullfilled regardless of WHO does it. Chances are he could have met someone who had no real idea how to cycle, and he could have screwed himself up much worse and got an infection or who knows what.

Sameway some idiot could have taught your friend how to do a CWE using 2 liters of warm water (which ftr would absorb A LOT of acetimophen) and his liver could have failed the first time he did it.
I see it as being important that he just knew how to do it, you taught him, and now your job is done.
ANYTHING that happens after that fact is HIS responsiblity, not yours.

You did not do a single thing wrong, and I'd venture to say between not telling him and telling him, telling him was ABSOLUTELY the right thing to do.

Take care! - Bo