Is technology unnatural?

[polymath]

When I was a teenager kid and got my first internet connection, I immediately began searching for politically incorrect material and I soon downloaded the Unabombers manifesto...

The Unabomber(Ted Kaczynski) says that the "unnatural" technological society will eventually make people more and more unhappy and that it will restrict personal freedoms more and more, and he tells people to abandon all modern technology...

I actually took that shit seriously for some time, but then I started to think: even some monkeys know how to use stones as a help when breaking nutshells open and chimps can use sticks to reach for bananas... Even that is a primitive form of technology, and if animals can do that, then it certainly can't be unnatural. It's difficult to draw the line between "natural" and "unnatural" use of technology.

The so called transhumanists say that technology will eventually make the enhancement of human body itself possible, radically increasing the life-span of humans and giving us physical and mental abilities we didn't have before... Most people would probably say that enhancing the human body with technology is "unnatural" and therefore unethical.

I personally like the hedonistic transhumanist movement, as outlined in www.hedweb.com , which says that modern technology will eventually make everyone permanently happy.

What do you think about this? Where goes the line where the use of technology becomes too "unnatural" to be ethical?

 

[DJ 303]

everything we know, experience, achieve, and comprehend is natural.

ethical however, is another matter.

but due to startlingly recent technological advances i get to live twice as long as my great great great great uncles and aunts. a few generations! twice as long! twice as long to love my wife, my life, my friends, my music, myself and all that i hold dear to me.

mr Kaczynski can fuck off.
Though I don't claim to be an expert on the fella.
but somehow i think he excludes technological advances that may save his life or his lover's life.
medicine, hygeine, sanitation, civilization???
do you think he'd really opt to revert back to a shit slinging primate, on some barron desert plain, who probably wouldn't survive diarrea let alone the next winter or the next bigger shit slinger who wants to beat his ass.
sounds like a wanker.

 

[polymath]

The reason why I feel sympathy for Kaczinsky is that he's been diagnosed with Aspergers syndrome, like I do... That doesn't mean that I agree with his ideas. I personally think that if you're able to do some thing, then that thing is natural.

 

[High Yogi]

When I was a teenager kid and got my first internet connection, I immediately began searching for politically incorrect material and I soon downloaded the Unabombers manifesto...

The Unabomber(Ted Kaczynski) says that the "unnatural" technological society will eventually make people more and more unhappy and that it will restrict personal freedoms more and more, and he tells people to abandon all modern technology...

I actually took that shit seriously for some time, but then I started to think: even some monkeys know how to use stones as a help when breaking nutshells open and chimps can use sticks to reach for bananas... Even that is a primitive form of technology, and if animals can do that, then it certainly can't be unnatural. It's difficult to draw the line between "natural" and "unnatural" use of technology.

The so called transhumanists say that technology will eventually make the enhancement of human body itself possible, radically increasing the life-span of humans and giving us physical and mental abilities we didn't have before... Most people would probably say that enhancing the human body with technology is "unnatural" and therefore unethical.

I personally like the hedonistic transhumanist movement, as outlined in www.hedweb.com , which says that modern technology will eventually make everyone permanently happy.

What do you think about this? Where goes the line where the use of technology becomes too "unnatural" to be ethical?

I Believe that technology is an expansion of ourselves. All technologies have spawned out of a need for the self. We needed to see better, so we created glasses. We needed to preserve food, so we created refrigerators. We needed to farm so we created conducts and water systems, even the mayans did this. All human societies and civilizations have created a form of technology. Language is even a sort of technology. So, i do not think the problem lies in technology, as we use it for the advancement of our species and selves. I believe the problem lies not in technology, but in the abuse of this technology. If we create a camera for security surveillance thats fine, but if we create one to spy on an organization to stop them from attempting truth, for example, thereon lies the problem. If we can smash atoms together to power society in a clean and efficient matter, this is no problem. If however, we are creating atom bombs... do u see what im getting at? Technology is a form of power and with power comes responsibility. Let us not abuse each other with this power of ours.

Also, I think that "advancing" the body with "technology" is a failure. Technology has been created by man, and this body of ours by nature. Let us not degrade ourselves to the knowledge of man, but live the by wisdom of nature.

I heard Terence Mckenna say a lot about how we are merging with some sort of technological advancement or something like that, like, our consciousness which is information based, will merge with the internet, another base for information. What do you guys make of this? Sorry i cannot recall exactly what he said, but i think it would be an interesting piece to this thread

 

[hobhead]

everything under and beyond the sun is natural. not all of it is beneficial to mankind though.
i fail to see how technological advancement is ''unnatural'' !
we monkey's uncles are naturally looking to advance civilization and at the same time doing our best to fuck things up.
dumb monkey, bad monkey - spank the monkey *fap*

 

[Shrooms00087]

I'd define natural as a system with predictable results. Is technology in that system? Is it predictable? Humans are naturally enveloped by the system and has predictable results (even if humans can't predict it) but since we made technology we disrupted the system and will yield unpredictable results. I don't believe (modern) societies are even natural.

 

[DJ 303]

I'd define natural as a system with predictable results. Is technology in that system? Is it predictable? Humans are naturally enveloped by the system and has predictable results (even if humans can't predict it) but since we made technology we disrupted the system and will yield unpredictable results. I don't believe (modern) societies are even natural.

well. erm...
hang on a minute.

Natural is a system with predictable results?
how about techtonic plate movement? seismic activity? next years weather?

Anyway we can predict or at least make educated assumptions about the general direction of technology.
we know that basically things get smaller, more efficient, more powerful etc

This focus on "prediction" is surely a bit irrelevant because ultimately you, me, spoons, my turntables, chocolate, and frogspawn are all made of the same shit. Everything is made from elements in the periodic table. Everything and everyone are made of atoms, protons, electrons, neutrons, quarks, particles and sub atomic particles etc.

The word nature is derived from the Latin word natura, or "essential qualities, innate disposition".
thus everything is natural. Everything physical that we know of is made of atoms, which all at their smallest level obey the same principles of physics.

we are creatures of this earth and all aspects of our society are a manifestation of the evolution of our species. Yes we are apparently the only animal to have evolved consciousness, or awareness of our actions and intentions but that doesn't exclude us from nature! thats bonkers!

 

[Shrooms00087]

Just because we can't do it, doesn't mean the system doesn't have circumstances which spurn exact results. So next years weather, is as easy as the conditions that spurn it. [etc]

Just because we rearrange atoms does not make the new arrangement "natural", no? Without external influences that are not incorporated in the conditioned system then a plastic doll would never exist, no?

I was giving my description, as to not be boring and give its definition.

I never said it excluded us from nature, societies came from small tribes. Which is completely natural. Then we started disrupting the system. If we integrated ourselves with technology, then I would consider that unnatural. But, nor am I saying that "unnatural" is bad, just different.

 

[MrRoot]

High Yogi, you said that advancing a body with a technology is a failure?

Am I a failure because I use a technology to see better with contact lenses? Or have some metal in my knee to make it more stable?

Are people with heart defibrillators failure too? Or people with inner ear implants total failures a they can even hear better than normal people?

Or me using a neuro transmitter headband to do for example a simple copypaste functions faster than using a keyboard at work or being able to for example reload a weapon in games at home?

 

[DJ 303]

High Yogi, you said that advancing a body with a technology is a failure?

Am I a failure because I use a technology to see better with contact lenses? Or have some metal in my knee to make it more stable?

Are people with heart defibrillators failure too? Or people with inner ear implants total failures a they can even hear better than normal people?

Or me using a neuro transmitter headband to do for example a simple copypaste functions faster than using a keyboard at work or being able to for example reload a weapon in games at home?

^well spoken sir.
This thread is silly!

All matter is merely energy condensed into a slow vibration, thus we are all one consciousness experiencing ourselves subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is merely a dream in which we are the imagination of ourselves...
And here's Tom with the weather.....

 

[malakaix]

I heard Terence Mckenna say a lot about how we are merging with some sort of technological advancement or something like that, like, our consciousness which is information based, will merge with the internet, another base for information. What do you guys make of this?

I vaguely recall him mentioning something of the like, i don't believe this merge will present itself in a way we could possibly comprehend at this time.. but i do feel it will be the greatest evolutionary leap in consciousness to date. For the first time ever, we will assumingly be-able to integrate all previous stages of consciousness development into an integral self, rather then viewing past stages (tribal,religious,scientific etc) as something we've evolved past and is no longer apart of us.

This integration could mark the point of a technological singularity, one could only imagine the immense development that would follow.

 

[TheAppleCore]

I personally like the hedonistic transhumanist movement, as outlined in www.hedweb.com , which says that modern technology will eventually make everyone permanently happy.

Oh god. That sounds awful.

Thankfully I don't think anything like that will ever come to fruition.

Something sounds terribly wrong with a future humanity whose ambition to escape a tedious, timid, and monotonous lifestyle is completely pacified by a technology that keeps the populace in a continuous state of ignorant bliss.

 

[Jabberwocky]

If things generated by man rather than by nature is the conceptual basis of unnatural than technology is the epitome of unnatural. I love my extremely unnatural life.

Natural as an aesthetic appeals to me but its OK if it is synthesized or tainted. I seem to have a hard time finding much at all that hasn't suffered from the taint of humanity. Since I like quite a few humans I'll just learn to accept it.

 

[Raw Evil]

Just because we rearrange atoms does not make the new arrangement "natural", no? Without external influences that are not incorporated in the conditioned system then a plastic doll would never exist, no?

But at what point does a plastic doll become unnatural?

When the oil forms under the Earth?
When the oil is extracted?
When it is refined? Polymerised? Cast in the mould? Sold at a toy store? Pulled apart by an angry child?

If we are from nature, then we are part of nature, yes? It then follows that since our creations are from us, then they are also from nature - as we ourselves are natural - and therefore these things are part of nature as well!

Ergo, nothing can truly be called unnatural.

 

[DJ 303]

But at what point does a plastic doll become unnatural?

When the oil forms under the Earth?
When the oil is extracted?
When it is refined? Polymerised? Cast in the mould? Sold at a toy store? Pulled apart by an angry child?

If we are from nature, then we are part of nature, yes? It then follows that since our creations are from us, then they are also from nature - as we ourselves are natural - and therefore these things are part of nature as well!

Ergo, nothing can truly be called unnatural.

^^^Right!!!

come on BL-ers! This is pretty simple logic here!

It's extremely reminiscent of another absurd though frighteningly common misconception that i read often on BLl;
that is when people say they don't take "chemicals" only "natural" substances like weed or shrooms.
Tetra Hydro Cannibol and Psylocybin are the chemicals that you are taking from these "natural" substances.
and does your definition of "natural" include opium then? as its from the opium poppy?
or cocaine as it's from the coca plant?
how about aspirin? made from the bark of a willow tree!
everything is chemical!
and every chemical is natural.

ergo nothing is unnatural!

doh!

 

[malakaix]

Its interesting how well this thread ties in with the notion of non-duality, for something to be unnatural it would need to be separate from us, the view of separation is merely illusion created through the paradox of duality. So if one understands that nothing is unnatural, then it should be rather easy to acknowledge as-well, that nothing is separate.

It's all integral man!

 

[Shrooms00087]

But at what point does a plastic doll become unnatural?

When the oil forms under the Earth?
When the oil is extracted?
When it is refined? Polymerised? Cast in the mould? Sold at a toy store? Pulled apart by an angry child?

If we are from nature, then we are part of nature, yes? It then follows that since our creations are from us, then they are also from nature - as we ourselves are natural - and therefore these things are part of nature as well!

Ergo, nothing can truly be called unnatural.

When the plastic doll itself can not be accounted for without our intervention. You know in space there are a lot of natural materials, like a giant cloud that is made of alcohol, or the planet made of diamonds...But I suggest that you will NEVER find a plastic doll made naturally through natural circumstances.

Or take the anthill. It is a tool and a society. Or the octopus who builds his home. How is it natural and how does it differ from our unnatural existence? These differ because it's a survival strategy, made from their natural surroundings and is completely predictable. Humans on the other hand have mastered the environment and no longer survive through natural predictable circumstances, because we have drastically changed our surroundings to benefit things other than survival--mainly pleasure. If it can't happen naturally (a system which produces exact results) then it is unnatural. Yes a human is natural, his boat isn't. Even if a human crafted his boat, a boat would not exist without a human.

 

[rickolasnice]

Animals use tools (birds use sticks, monkeys use rocks, etc)..

Tools are technology..

They are used to make their lives easier / more comfortable..

Gorillas making a new bed every night doesn't help it survive.. it helps it to be more comfortable..

Dolphins will use "toys" to have fun, increasing their intake of leisurely activity..

That's what humans are doing.. making their lives easier and more comfortable and fun.. but kind of in a super organism way.. we're all working for the "queen" (the world leaders / ruling elite / rich assholes)

 

[High Yogi]

High Yogi, you said that advancing a body with a technology is a failure?

Am I a failure because I use a technology to see better with contact lenses? Or have some metal in my knee to make it more stable?

Are people with heart defibrillators failure too? Or people with inner ear implants total failures a they can even hear better than normal people?

Or me using a neuro transmitter headband to do for example a simple copypaste functions faster than using a keyboard at work or being able to for example reload a weapon in games at home?

Haha, i stand corrected! nice point there. I guess I more or less just meant that man isnt as smart as god or mother nature and to try and recreate ourselves would be a fail. I mean, we cant make ourselves better than nature, but if we have lost something we can use technology to get somewhere close than the original creation.

 

[Raw Evil]

Or take the human city. It is a tool and a society. Or the hermit who builds his home. How is it natural and how does it differ from our unnatural existence? These differ because it's a survival strategy, made from their natural surroundings (the natural rocks and metals from the Earth) and like the octopus or anthill is emergent and only predictable in appearance.

Fixed that for you.

Humans on the other hand have mastered the environment and no longer survive through natural predictable circumstances, because we have drastically changed our surroundings to benefit things other than survival--mainly pleasure.

Are you suggesting that the determining factor of naturalness is intent? How exactly is the pursuit of pleasure unnatural? Dolphins have been observed to have sex for pleasure rather than recreation - is that natural?

If it can't happen naturally (a system which produces exact results) then it is unnatural.

Um. What. Have you ever seen a tree? "Predictable" is not a word I'd use.

If on the other hand what you're suggesting is that humans somehow magically exist outside of determinism while the rest of nature does not, then I implore you to take the time to explain how you hold such a position.

Yes a human is natural, his boat isn't. Even if a human crafted his boat, a boat would not exist without a human.

What if the boat was a survival strategy? Would that make it natural, as per your previously-stated criterion?