Is it hard for others when your realization is that death is final?

[applesbliss]

Ever since I was young, I've thought obsessively about death being 'final'. When I was six years old I would ponder in bed at night before falling asleep how after I died, death would be final. That I would never exist in any way again. I'm talking about everything that comprises 'me' (or anyone) -- right now.

I simply can't buy into the concept of an 'afterlife' or 'Heaven' or 'Hell'. Though I would be willing to believe, if it seemed logical. But I think that humans are animals, albeit smarter than a dog. But a dog dies and is finished, and thus, I assume that the same is true for a human.

Considering that some humans use to believe that 'Heaven' was in the clouds. And since we, as a human race have disproved that in the clouds is not a Heaven, but rather outer space lies beyond the clouds and our atmosphere. When I recognize the billions of galaxies in the known universe with solar systems (extrasolar) outside of our own. I can't help but assume that other planets harbor life, but we can't specifically see it yet. It's not only a question of 'why do we matter', but in terms of death, why does it matter if humans on Earth die? What special circumstances will happen to us, that wouldn't happen to 'type x' species on planet 'far, far away'?

Physically, my brain is in control of my body. After 'I' (or anyone) dies, my brain will cease to function. How can 'I' (or anybody) still exist after this happens?

Some people believe in spirits and ghosts. However, there's no real proof of this, so how can there be any proof of any sort of afterlife?

Back to my original point at the start of this thread. When I think about everything that 'I' am being 'lost forever'. I become quite scared. Knowing that I exist right now, but knowing that my existence won't be forever is quite frightening.

 

[PGTips]

I have the same opinion as you, that when we're dead that it, gone, nothing left. Once the electrical patterns in our brain decay and stop we have ceased to exist.

I do not find it terribly scary. I've had this view for most of my life and think about it every now and again. Would I want to live forever in the afterlife? No. Why? Because living forever isn't some kind of wonderful idea, it will eventually become terribly terribly boring. You'll have done all there is to do, seen everything, etc. As Tolkein put in The Silmarillion

Ironically, immortality is a mixed blessing. As age after age rolls by, even the Valar may envy men their release from the world.

I've accepted I've a short time in existance, and that just says "Do as best you can in the time you've got". I don't deny I'd like to live longer. A few hundred years of being physically and mentally fit would be nice, gives a chance to do a couple of different things with your life, but forever? No thanks.

 

[applesbliss]

I just have the notion that living forever would be a good thing. Really. I feel like I could think of an infinite amount of things to do. Even 'boredom' sounds better than not existing at all.

Alas, it's not possible. Though some scientists suggest that the technology to 'life forever' will be possible within the next 100 years. Either way, nothing could prevent a person from being murdered, or from some tragic car accident .

 

[Void]

You wont be the same but that doesnt mean you wont be better off. Death is a transition, a change, but I think your core self continues on. Some stuff are better left behind.

 

[SweetIrony Inc.]

hmm..

living forever may sound like a "good thing" and be a pleasurable idea.

Conscousness forever may be a "nice thought"

but come on...is it really realistic?

Without the chemical reactions and physiological processes occuring in your brain, do you reallly think you will be able to relate an experience?

Afterall, experience is simply the processing and interpretation of physical experience...

How can you describe a spiritual experience? Does your consciousness...something we have not proven to be experienced sans biological processes...carry on to another dimension?

Is there some other world or dimension that your entity influences...that you have control over?

Really, what is the point in believing that there is another world we can exist in? What are we going to do there? Do we all go there? Is it just another world (physical world) that we can fuck up like we're doing this one?

And if so...is there an end to that experience? Is there somewhere more evolved and more enlightened than that place? what makes that place the ultimate experience?

Come on... be realistic. Faith is the belief in that which can not be proven...and it's simply human's answer to that which can not be proven.

But everything can be proven...it's just that we don't want to believe some of it. Therefore we construe some idea of a deity and an afterlife that reassures us and gives us hope that the end of our physical consciousness is not the end of our influence in the world.

I really believe we are just a product of a physical process...just a cycle of biological and physical processes that has created beings which pursue efficiency.

We seek pleasure...and true natural pleasure comes in the form of enhanced survivabilty.

It's as simple as that.

I'll discuss any arguments.

As for now, i'm tired.

 

[j33buscr1p3s]

I try not to think about it. Maybe there's an outside chance that there is an afterlife. Either way, it's not bad. If I cease to exist, it can't be bad, because I won't exist to make a judgement about it. If there's an afterlife, then I still exist and that's alright, too.

 

[johnmortons]

You wont be the same but that doesnt mean you wont be better off. Death is a transition, a change, but I think your core self continues on. Some stuff are better left behind.

that's about as plausible as this statement is vague

no easter bunny, sorry

 

[socks]

i don't think you cease to exist. i think rather you join the great 'life-force' that makes up everything, you become everything and nothing.

 

[Leg]

yea, i get scared of death a lot
i also believe that, theoretically, i think i could live forever
i think if your chakras are open (for lack of a better/easier explanation) you can stay alive
...
i see no reason to die
i mean
i'm an optimist
(even though my life sucks lately)

is life the opposite of death?
or is life merely hanging in the middle between two sides of death? pendulum

 

[applesbliss]

i don't think you cease to exist. i think rather you join the great 'life-force' that makes up everything, you become everything and nothing.

What do you mean "the great 'life-force' that makes up everything"? Is an inanimate stone, for example, made up of this 'life-force'?

 

[applesbliss]

yea, i get scared of death a lot
i also believe that, theoretically, i think i could live forever
i think if your chakras are open (for lack of a better/easier explanation) you can stay alive
...
i see no reason to die
i mean
i'm an optimist
(even though my life sucks lately)

is life the opposite of death?
or is life merely hanging in the middle between two sides of death? pendulum

I don't believe that we're "hanging" in between life and death. We're definitely 'alive' right now, there's no denying that fact. The cycle of life dictates that we're born and then we die. So, it's a cycle, or a process. We are just like the dog (or any other animal), where he or she is born and then dies.

The question that I've brought up is: Whether you're afraid of being gone forever.

 

[monkeyjunky]

it would be extremely scary if you had left things undone, or could never reconcile relationships.
Luckliy, i believe in a higher power.
applesbliss - i hate all that kind of "life force" talk too, but its really hard to describe in non-newage terms. Especially for those who don't like the idea of a "God".
Essentially the same thing though, particularly the God=love idea.

 

[Acidfiend]

What do you mean "the great 'life-force' that makes up everything"? Is an inanimate stone, for example, made up of this 'life-force'?

Yes. I believe that what we define "life" as is simply a more creative expression of the "source." Whatever it is that is responsible for the birth and existance of the universe is responsible for all aspects of it. Any differences between "things" in it are superficial, everything comes from the same source (whatever it is that defines the logical rules that govern nature) and the same source materials.

From the very beginning there was evolution. Some scientists think that sub-atomic particles (quarks, strings, whatever) actually evolved themselves from more basic components in the first nanoseconds of the universe. Those particles then "evolved" to form hydrogen and stars, which then exploded and gave us coolor, larger and more complex atoms. Those atoms then evolved to form molecules, and some molecules evolved into contained systems that were able to store energy and metabolize organic materials (and, in some cases, non-organic materials). The rest is history, and as we progress the system gets more creative with the advent of the macro-organism of industry, culture, society. But its all coming from the same source, following the same rules in the same system composed of the same basic materials.

I used to think that consciousness is entirely a product of neuronal communication, and to a great extent it is true. However, I now believe that there is a very basic form of consiousness from which all "individuality" stems from...this bare feeling of "being" that has no personality or identity attached to it. I believe that the illusion of individuality and seperateness is just this unified feeling of "being" subjected to a different set of circumstances (life). When your life ends, so does your neuronal connections and thus your individuality and personhood. But I do not believe that the "being" goes away, rather it becomes re-attached to the original source from which it stemmed from. Hindus refer to it as the "Dharma", a great fire of which every organism is a "spark." Personally, I don't think that life is anything special to distinguish itself from the source. Everything is an expression of the source; solids, liquids, gases.. everything. Life and consciousness are merely more creative expressions of it.

 

[applesbliss]

^ I dig what you're saying about 'the source'.

But I do feel like humans are more important than individual quarks, atoms, and gases. Of coarse, this feeling is based on my ego. Even if I'm returned to 'the source' after I die. I don't see how that relates to 'me' (or anyone) continuing on.

I know that this concept of 'the source' is deeper than I could imagine.

Yes, it's a romantic notion to scatter someone's ashes over the ocean to 'return them from whence they sprung'--made from the Earth, something bigger than the individual. Yet, I don't feel like that person (who's ashes were scattered) really continues on. Their existence has been finalized.

 

[Acidfiend]

^ I dig what you're saying about 'the source'.

But I do feel like humans are more important than individual quarks, atoms, and gases. Of coarse, this feeling is based on my ego. Even if I'm returned to 'the source' after I die. I don't see how that relates to 'me' (or anyone) continuing on.

I know that this concept of 'the source' is deeper than I could imagine.

Yes, it's a romantic notion to scatter someone's ashes over the ocean to 'return them from whence they sprung'--made from the Earth, something bigger than the individual. Yet, I don't feel like that person (who's ashes were scattered) really continues on. Their existence has been finalized.

I understand what you are saying. And, you are basically correct; once you die there will no longer be a "you." What is critical to understand is that "you" dont really exist as an individual, there is no "you." There appears to be a "you" because you have a seperate body container to house a brain that has been responding to different stimuli than every other body container out there. Fundamentally, however, I believe there is no "you" or "me" or "them," there is only "us."

And I'll also let you know a way to look at "your" death in a way that you wont be afraid. What follows is perhaps the most important lesson I learned on my DMT trips (and DMT has taught me many things). When you achive the full loss of "ego" and identity that is almost akin to death...it is nothing short of true freedom. What you and every being in the universe seeks is ultimate freedom, and life as we know it is a very restrictive cage. The laws of nature, the limitations of our bodies and minds, the tyranny of authority, the influences of people and events, and our ego-driven desires and fears are our prisons. These are the things that define you as who you are, and yet they are simultaneously the only things that are holding you back from true happiness and freedom. The only way you can be free of these things is to become seperate from your physical body, to be separated from all your memories and dreams and fears, to be separated from society and culture and the people you know. To be free you must be free of everything that defines you and who you are.

Which brings me to a related point, "heaven and hell." I do not believe in either, but what I do believe is that the concepts of heaven and hell are derived from different ways of interpreting death. I noticed this with differen't people's reactions to DXM and DMT. There are people who become so attached to the pleasures of existance and the satisfaction of feeding their ego that "losing" all of it results in a very traumatic and hellish experience. Everything they have ever loved or worked for or suffered through becomes meaningless, everything about them becomes meaningless, and without any greater purpose of meaning other than to satisfy their own ego (which is now dead) they torment themselves over their losses.
Then there are those like me, who (once getting over the fear that I just died) relish in the freedom and infinite sense of being in the moment with no past or future to be aware of. I learned to like it after studying Buddhism, which taught me that desire is the cause of suffering and having a pure mind (free of your bullshit) is the key to clairity and happiness.

Fear is also a cause of suffering in the world, probably the greatest one. Death (at least with our current state of technology) is imminent and unavoidable. Therefore, why cause yourself to suffer by fearing that which you cannot possibly avoid? If you are going to fear, fear something that will cause you and others to suffer that you can potentially change. Then MAKE those changes, and avoid suffering. Do not fear that which you cannot avoid, for the fear itself will cause you to suffer.

 

[applesbliss]

This is really great insight from you and also your experiences with DMT.

Fear is also a cause of suffering in the world, probably the greatest one. Death (at least with our current state of technology) is imminent and unavoidable. Therefore, why cause yourself to suffer by fearing that which you cannot possibly avoid? If you are going to fear, fear something that will cause you and others to suffer that you can potentially change. Then MAKE those changes, and avoid suffering. Do not fear that which you cannot avoid, for the fear itself will cause you to suffer.

Personally, about 50% of the time my fear of death is turned into something good. In the past I've used it as a motivating factor to live life 'in the moment' -- every day, every moment, and so forth. I've also used this fear as a way to decide and hone on what's most important to me.

The other 50% of the time is the 'horror' (not existing, etc..) side of dieing.

I am well versed with DXM experiences. I was quite heavily into DXM when I was a teenager. I posted my trip reports a long, long time ago on Bluelight . In retrospect, and based on what you've said. I can conclude that I was probably too attached to my ego. DXM in high dosages certainly can result in egoless feelings and thought.

And I'll also let you know a way to look at "your" death in a way that you wont be afraid. What follows is perhaps the most important lesson I learned on my DMT trips (and DMT has taught me many things). When you achive the full loss of "ego" and identity that is almost akin to death...it is nothing short of true freedom.

I'm no stranger to psychedelics. I used LSD on occasion from 1999 till 2003. From 1999 till 2003, I was into the 'research chemicals' that helped to usher in the popularity of their discussion on Bluelight, especially in regards to 2C-T-7 and 5-MeO-DIPT. I also took three months off from things in 1999 to experiment with Salvia-Divinorum daily.

But DMT is one that I've always hoped to try, under the right circumstances mind you. Unfortunately, my resident country of choice at the moment doesn't let me have access to any interesting substances. But hopefully at some point in the future when I return to North America. I can get to experience what DMT is like .

Then there are those like me, who (once getting over the fear that I just died) relish in the freedom and infinite sense of being in the moment with no past or future to be aware of. I learned to like it after studying Buddhism, which taught me that desire is the cause of suffering and having a pure mind (free of your bullshit) is the key to clairity and happiness.

Fear is also a cause of suffering in the world, probably the greatest one. Death (at least with our current state of technology) is imminent and unavoidable. Therefore, why cause yourself to suffer by fearing that which you cannot possibly avoid? If you are going to fear, fear something that will cause you and others to suffer that you can potentially change. Then MAKE those changes, and avoid suffering. Do not fear that which you cannot avoid, for the fear itself will cause you to suffer.

And I know the Buddha's teachings well. It's odd that I presently live in a Buddhist country, yet I'm so disconnected from the practice and teachings of it. When I first came to Asia a year and a half ago, I was 'all about' learning about Buddhism. Then I let that notion slide.

The highlight was definitely last June when I spent a month in Bodh Gaya (India) (where the Buddha first became 'enlightened'). If you ever consider going to India, I suggest you to go there. On a daily basis I visited all of the represented temples in Bodhgaya, including Burmese, Thai, Japanese, Korean, Tibetan, Chinese, Bangladeshi, and Bhutanese Buddhist temples. And I spent quite some time meditating, following in on various chants, talking with family Buddhists from all the world over, and doing circles around the great Mahabodhi temple built by the emperor Ashoka. A descendent of the original Bodhi tree is there .

Also interesting was Saranath - where the Buddha first 'taught' his message of the 'Middle Way'. Saranath is only about 15 miles from the holy city of Varanesi (Beneres). The original 'Deer Park' is still there (in Saranath), along with a transcription of the Buddha's actual words in stone. There's a Jainist influence there in Saranath, because one of their prophets hailed from Saranath.

Damn, I always take my threads off-topic. Oh well. 8)

 

[David]

Revelations will come to pass, because christians have finally started to realize this, and since they are a culture based purely on reactionism, they will react, and repell anything they view to be inline with this train of thought, and seek early death, or passage by activating their whole death scene predicted by their great book of GOD's word.

Anyways that was a thought I had today, and then when I saw this thread, I decided to post it.

 

[Draic]

How do you know what happens to a dog after it dies ?
Have you seen through its eyes ?
Just because it has the label animal attached to it does not mean its consciousness goes on , in whatever form or way that it might.
Your ASSUMING that death is final , I just don't see what evidence your basing this assumption on.

In my opinion people believe in the soul based on their experience of it , ie. having left their body.Thats what my belief in it is based on.
You are assuming that your physical brain is the be all and end all.

Open your mind to the possibilities of other forms of existence beyond the physical.
If we can exist in a physical sense , then surely we can exist in other forms.
If this strand of existence is possible then why not others ?

IMHO the fact we exist at all proves anythings possible , we have already made the giant leap from nothing to something.

 

[hyperborea13]

Ya im with you on this one applebliss. I actually had the same thing going on. I'm a very scientific person, and believe that what we percieve as basic consciousness is a result of physical processes that occur in our heads. Once we die, this consciousness fades out. And this scares the living shit out of me.

I remember when I was a kid sometimes I'd be struck with this feeling that I've tried to put into words and failed miserably every time. The best I could explain is that I would feel, 'this is just life.' All of my experience, everything that I know and hold dear, is just a transitory series of chemical interactions. This hapened to me a lot when I was in the shower or just before I went to sleep.

Now, whenever I think of death, I tell myself that even though there isn't an afterlife, there is some sort of force in the universe, some sort of consioiusness, or something. Howerver, deep down I know, im dead, there is nothing.

I could probably give myself an anxiety attack thinking about it right now. But thank you, know I know I'm not the only weird person

 

[Grim]

I agree with pretty much everything Acidfiend said. I have held almost exactly the same views for the past few years.

I do believe there is a far deeper layer of reality that we cannot comprehend because it does not correspond with the way our senses perceive the world (ie., 3-dimensional world with time always moving forward).

Aside from that though, what's the point of fearing death? There was a time before you were born when you did not exist, at least not in your current state of consciousness. Besides, I do not think I would want to be alive forever, I would think that after a ertain point I would get tired of life.

We are all made out of the same stuff that makes up everything else in our universe, both matter and energy. In fact, The Holographic Universe ideas sound very appealing to me.