Is it depression, a revelation, or what?

[verso]

I think that this is the right forum for such a discussion, and I'm going to try to be brief but without leaving out any important details:

Basically, I had everything going for me about two years ago. I was living in a beautiful apartment with a beautiful girl; I bought a car, and not just any car, but the car I really, really wanted; I was finishing up school, paying all of my bills on time; I had a good part-time job at my university doing some work for their development department; I took a trip to Paris just for the hell of it...

In other words, I really had my shit together. (I was, at this time, taking amphetamines, adderall, quite regularly to help me get all of these things done.) I thought that I'd quit taking them, and so I did, and I experienced all the terrible depression and withdrawal symptoms of kicking amphetamines which, I soon realized, were really more mental than physical. I felt stupid, incapable of performing even the simplest task. It sucked, but I knew that it had to be done. They say that when it rains, it pours. Well, at the same time I'm kicking amphetamines, I come down with a terrible, terrible case of mono. I mean, so bad that I had to go to the hospital; it was attacking my liver, and so my liver wasn't working correctly or something. It sucked. If you've ever kicked amphetamines, and if you've ever had a bad case of mono, well, imagine trying to put the two together.

So, needless to say, I was bed-ridden for nearly a month with my bills piling up. I got back to work, but it was tough because I came down with a real bad case of chronic fatigue syndrome. The depression that had come with kicking the amphetamines and might have gone away was now the depression that came with chronic fatigue syndrome. I never had a break. I was slipping up at school, missing classes, missing work.

I said that I was finishing up school, right? Well, eventually, I had to begin my student teaching, and this was the last thing I had to do before graduating. Now, anyone who has ever done student teaching knows that it's difficult to work part-time because of all your responsibilities to the program, so I worked minimal hours.

Well, student teaching didn't go as planned, and unfairly, I felt. (The only problem that my mentors had with me was my organization, and I felt that they had it out for me from the very beginning.) I came to the realization that, well, I likely wouldn't pass student teaching... even after all I had put into it. (They flat-out told me I would probably not pass.)

So, having all these bills to pay, exhausted, working minimal hours, and looking like I wouldn't pass student teaching... I quit, quit everything. I walked away from student teaching, walked away from school, stopped paying my bills, got a couple part-time gigs, and even with that little bit of money coming in... well, I would just look at it and say, "fuck it! It's not even enough to pay the minimum payment on one of my credit cards." So, I found some way to piss that money away because it just didn't seem to matter anymore... and drugs fit the bill nicely.

I had been taking opiates pretty regularly, but I gave up taking everything, amphetamines, opiates, everything for student teaching. I wanted to do it entirely on my own without amphetamines or opiates or anything else... and it wasn't all that hard, really, because I loved teaching. Then, once teaching went to shit, I got back into drugs almost as though I had something to prove. I was really, really bitter.

And so now, here I am, still working two part-time jobs; my car needs an oil-change and I've been riding on a doughnut for the past month and a half; I haven't payed any of my bills, really; I spend all of my money on stupid shit, usually dope; and I just don't care. I don't feel depressed at all. I just don't care...

Everyone tells me, "Go back to school! Try student teaching again!" It's not that easy. I don't even have the money or the means to attempt student teaching again, not even if I really wanted to. I don't even feel motivated to try it again; nothing seems to matter to me. I feel like I really noticed that change in my attitude after the whole kicking-amphetamines-and-suffering-through-mono thing. It was like, I realized how quickly everything you have and everything you've worked for can be taken from you. Failing student teaching was just the icing on the cake, really, the cherry on top that all but proved it to be true.

What's wrong with me? Is it depression, even though I don't feel depressed? Is it just my new, apathetic attitude and outlook on life? What is it?

EDIT: So much for being brief. Sorry.

 

[Dave]

Don't apologize-- just getting that out there probably helped a bit. We're not necessarily about brevity here

I can empathize with what you're going through to an extent. I've stuggled with apathy through most of my life, and had a similar sort of thing happen to me academically back in '02. One thing that I've found over the years is that the words "fuck it" are the two most dangerous words in the English language for me. It's so easy to just give up; it even feels liberating at the time. The thing is, eventually you shake your head and realize that you could be so much more than you are with just a relatively small period of effort and/or deprivation. But having given up earlier, that period is a bit longer or a bit deeper than it needed to be.

My own opinion is that apathy and depression are comorbid, rather than apathy being a symptom of depression itself, but I'm no professional. Having run up against what amounts to institutional discrimination in your program, most people would be somewhat dejected. I mean, you were basically told that no matter how much work you do you will fail your student teaching?! Why bother then?

You love to teach. What do you need to do to get back into your program? Get it on paper, and set a timeframe to get back into your program. Now double it. Go on that schedule. Take your time, get clean if you need to, stay healthy (mono's a hell of an illness, and lingers/flares up easily), pay off your bills and set money aside for when you're not making any. Even if it takes 5 years to get back in, it will be worth it. The people who shot you down before will probably have either moved on or won't remember you. Maybe consider transferring to a different school when you do go back, to get away from that particular iteration of politics?

Sure, when you're at the bottom of the totem pole there is nothing secure about your position, and one's carreer usually walks a razor's edge for the first few years. This was a lesson, but in resilience, not capitulation. You don't hone a knife by sticking it in butter. The only things that you can control in life are what you do and how you react to what people do to you. It is easy to give up, but the easy path is virtually never the best one, long-term at least.

 

[verso]

Damn, I wasn't expecting such a thoughtful reply. Thanks

EDIT: And it's certainly something to think about...

 

[Jabberwocky]

Although I don't have much in the way of advice to give here, especially considering Dave's treatment of your query OP, but damn. I often find myself empathizing with what I read in TDS, and on BL generally, but rarely do I feel such a connection as I do with your narrative.

It took me a long time, and a LOT of struggling, to figure out wherein my passions lay. I got a kick out of Dave's suggestions - especially in that you make yourself a timeline and then double it - because this is exactly what I ended up doing. First, as this righteous mother fucker also mentioned, I had to take care of my drug problem(s). I'm finishing up an intensive outpatient treatment program, at the moment, and will be gearing up for full time work soon. Once I've got a stable gig going, I'm going to work more intensely on a set-by-step plan to realize my passions.

I'm not sure, but certainly it is good to emphasis, along with Dave, the importance of not putting too much pressure on yourself. Make a reasonable, honest timetable, then double it. I really like that. Furthermore, I can't stress enough the importance of your family/friends/social network. Social capital, I like to think of this as. I'm building, or shall we say rebuilding, a support network of friends where I can enjoy myself, trip once in a while, and generally live a healthy, fun and joyous life. This is an enviroment where I can be myself, encouraging my own particular sense of creativity, honesty and sense of personal dignity or self worth. It, in other words, is an enviroment tailored so that I might truly thrive.

I think you could do with one of those.

Of equal importance is that I'm making random connections into fields I would like to work myself into, say by talking with family members and friends over a drink or at a party. When the time comes these contacts, I am sure, will prove invaluable. But this is a more pragmatic, realpolitik aspect to social capital.

Again, I think the most important thing is finding a place for yourself. A place where you can be outwardly honest. Where it feels right to feel like yourself - however it is you feel. Where everything thing makes sense, and where it makes sense that certain things don't make sense. You get where I'm going... Finding and creating a home for myself has been the most important thing I have done in the last year. A place I can call my own.

Regardless, thank you for your post verso. I feel for you. If it makes a difference, I found that a certain psychedelic experience + out patient counseling really helped me, but, of course, it might not be necessary in your case. You'll get there. Try, try, and try again. You'll get there.

You have too much to loose and too much to gain by doing anything other than being true to your passions. This is, methinks, the most important thing.

 

[verso]

I honestly did not expect all of the very thoughtful feedback. I cannot thank you guys enough.

It's just strange, and I've never felt this way before. I've always been able to find some motivation for going ahead with what I have planned. I've always dreamed and planned big and somehow found a way to make it all happen. I mean, one would think that I would find that motivation in reminiscing on those times when I really had my shit together... going out with friends, footing the bill for drinks, taking trips to Paris, buying nice clothes and fragrances and taking care of all my responsibilities, to boot. Surely that should be my motivation to march onward, right? But it isn't, and I don't feel compelled to pick up and do it all again, not even when thinking back on those good times....

I'm not even so sure that I was any happier then, when I had my shit together, then I am right now... not paying my bills and not giving a fuck about anything.

I think that's what is so confusing about it all; I keep thinking, "well, maybe when things get so bad, I'll finally need to pull it together..." But I feel like the worst case scenario isn't even enough to motivate me. If my car were repossessed, and if my credit card companies force me to declare bankruptcy, and if I'm forced to pan-handle for a sandwich a day... I hate to say this, but I'm not sure that I would care. It's this rat-race, man. I mean, there's always going to be someone smarter, someone brighter, someone more handsome and more accomplished... and hell, even that guy who we all wish we were is probably miserable, what with his wife two-timing him and his kids all strung-out or whatever. And even if you do become a happy, successful person... the next day, a fucking hurricane or some unforeseen bad luck might take it all away from you. So why bother? Why care?\

Just complete apathy, zero motivation...

 

[Jabberwocky]

Okay, I think I understand your situation even better now verso. I totally get you on the motivation things - which was totally lacking in my life for far too long. I mean, I eventually got to the point where I didn't give a shit that I was essentially homeless living on the street. I just wasn't motivated to do anything, I mean in terms of using drugs or anything else. I was just, stuck. It was like I was waiting for something to happen.

Well, eventually, something did happen. People who knew me, well, they came out of the woodwork to support me and help me get back on my feet. I am lucky, blessed if you will, in this regard. Still though, I get the feeling you were like me, waiting... Waiting for something to happen, for better or worse, that will change everything.

Does this sound right?

Do you have people who know you? People who understand that you are invaluable? People who can give you a leg up, and help you become yourself, with your own particular passions, once again? This kind of support is of utmost importance in tumultuous times such as these.

 

[verso]

Okay, I think I understand your situation even better now verso. I totally get you on the motivation things - which was totally lacking in my life for far too long. I mean, I eventually got to the point where I didn't give a shit that I was essentially homeless living on the street. I just wasn't motivated to do anything, I mean in terms of using drugs or anything else. I was just, stuck. It was like I was waiting for something to happen.

Well, eventually, something did happen. People who knew me, well, they came out of the woodwork to support me and help me get back on my feet. I am lucky, blessed if you will, in this regard. Still though, I get the feeling you were like me, waiting... Waiting for something to happen, for better or worse, that will change everything.

Does this sound right?

Do you have people who know you? People who understand that you are invaluable? People who can give you a leg up, and help you become yourself, with your own particular passions, once again? This kind of support is of utmost importance in tumultuous times such as these.

Stuck! Yes, that's spot-on! I have good friends, but family, eh... I think my family is pretty much fed up with me and they can't wrap their heads around my situation.

 

[Jabberwocky]

You'd be amazed at the people who want to help you. I know what you mean when you say your family was fed up with you - mine was too. But even then, given certain limitations they were still there for me. I was also pleasantly surprised that when I tried to reconnect with old friends, or for that matter, make new friends, I was met with unimaginable success. Like, people love me for who I am. People are interested in me, because I am whatever it is that I am.

I think you're at the point where you just have to keep trying. Try to limit the dangerous situations you put yourself in (i.e. try to stay away from opiates but smoke herb if you'd like) in the mean time. But just get those feelers out. Sooner or later, and in all likelihood it's gonna be sooner, your gonna find someone who you connect with. You're gonna find yourself in a situation where you think to yourself, "Holly shit. This is it. I know what I have to do."

That's kinda what happened to me. Just keep trying. And don't ever forget the most important thing: You have too much to loose and too much to gain by doing anything other than being true to your passions.

And, on a more important level, I have this feeling about you: That is, you already know what you need to do. There isn't any mystery, it's just that you've forgotten something about yourself. I'm not sure if this is coming out right, but still, I think you know already what you need to do. It's already in you. So, do what you know intuitively to be right. Look before you cross the street. Help elderly people. Live a righteously. Things will fall into place around you while you do.

BE WELL, mi compañero

 

[verso]

^ I can't thank you enough for all the kind words and your taking the time to really think about what I've written and respond to it... a million times, thank you!

(Maybe I need to stop spending so much time over in Drug Culture... all we ever do is bullshit over there! Eh, I love it though... lol)

 

[Jabberwocky]

You are very welcome! I mean, of course I do it to help a friend in need, as he is surely a friend indeed... but I do it for myself as much as anyone else. This allows me to reflect on my own situation. If, in doing so, I can help someone else, well fuck. Why not?!

Trust me, people will be happy to help you - in fact, they will want to see you thrive. I was amazed at how people, those close to me as well as total strangers, would do whatever they could to help me be me. The world's an amazing place!

edit: I want to see you thrive.

 

[RedLeader]

Damnit, verso, I didn't want to have to read this thread. I was hoping this day wouldn't come, and I was hoping you really were doing well in life. I've read a decent amount of your posts around BL, and in many ways you remind me of myself (granted I am horrible at taking my own advice, so I hope this won't necessarily translate like that). I saw in the one thread that, like me, you're a opiate/INTJ. However, I have noticed over the past while that you've been using more and more heroin, albeit either without too many consequences or consequences that you effectively downplay. While you might be lucky in that you don't get horrible WDs or aren't lying, stealing or cheating like some addicts, I think it's gradually crept up on you more than you know. Heroin goes hand-in-hand with things like apathy, laziness, having the "fuck it"s and so on (except when you're trying to score, of course ...). I'd probably be willing to guess that it's less actually about lingering mono or chronic fatigue and more about subtle psychological effects linked to heroin use that is what's keeping you in your rut.

I know this is generic advice that's easier given than followed, but you probably wanna get out sooner than later. Quit completely or become an infrequent chipper, whatever works for you, but you gotta not let it have such an impact on your life. I'm not trying to call you an addict, not at all. I'm just saying that like you, I really love heroin, I know what that beautiful romance with the diamorphine is like, however after going up and down with it for a while, I've realised that the habit/addiction is MUCH more than just balancing the pleasureful nods with the painful withdrawals. It's just that a lot of the other stuff is more subtle, and the pleasure/pain aspect of the ride requires your full attention.

But ya, don't get get out so that you never have to experience true withdrawal (though that's a good enough excuse, IMO), but also so that you can simply your life up a lot. Sure, the heroin "fuck it"s might seem to numb out a lot (trust me, I was in some fucked up situations during my addiction that I'd shrug my shoulders at then, but now in my memory I am like ), but they also stress you out in ways too. Gotta find a job that does not piss-test. Gotta not nod too hard so that my students know something up. Gotta spend the money wisely. And so on. After you quit and that stuff goes away, though the overflow of emotions (and/or PAWS) can be difficult, this is offset by removing a lot of those stresses.

I could tell you a similar story about myself falling from a high place. Man, it would even include girls, cars, foreign travel, higher-education. I could also tell you that I had a (long) period of apathy afterward, coupled with depression over how far I fell. The best advice I can give you, based on what I *should* have done, is to basically tell yourself that school can wait, your dream job can wait, you will be able to travel again (er, just don't get into legal trouble because that can fuck with school and travel abilities - another reason to chill out), but you have to keep busy with something. And this something, or preferably somethings, should be things where progress can be tracked. Working out in a gym, charting your way to a better self-image? Yes. Staying "busy" by watching South Park reruns 12 hours a day? No.

If I had any real answers to defeating the funk, then I'd have escaped from my own. I empathize with ya, because I know how hard it can be. And I know it does not exactly get easier as time passes, since it more and more becomes what you know. Like Dave said, sometimes you just gotta suck it up and battle through an initiation period with a new activity/interest/job/etc in your life, though. The genuinely good things in life act against a drug-users intuition in that while drugs tend to make us feel good now and worse later, stuff that's actually really beneficial to a life can require blood, sweat and tears before the rewards are really felt. You just gotta make that first step, tip the first domino, etc. In my experience, that initial step is typically the hardest. We torture ourselves at times sitting around thinking about how we don't really want to start things, when really the uncomfortableness won't be that bad at all.

I may come back and write more later, but I hope maybe some of this makes sense to ya! And ya, I agree that DC can be a bit enabling at times, so maybe cutting your DC/BL time down a bit could help you be a bit more productive in other ways.

 

[VanWeyden]

I honestly did not expect all of the very thoughtful feedback. I cannot thank you guys enough.

It's just strange, and I've never felt this way before. I've always been able to find some motivation for going ahead with what I have planned. I've always dreamed and planned big and somehow found a way to make it all happen. I mean, one would think that I would find that motivation in reminiscing on those times when I really had my shit together... going out with friends, footing the bill for drinks, taking trips to Paris, buying nice clothes and fragrances and taking care of all my responsibilities, to boot. Surely that should be my motivation to march onward, right? But it isn't, and I don't feel compelled to pick up and do it all again, not even when thinking back on those good times....

I'm not even so sure that I was any happier then, when I had my shit together, then I am right now... not paying my bills and not giving a fuck about anything.

Maybe the things you had were just nice for you and not more, and that may be a reason you don't care about it right now. It sounds like everything you had was good but not what you really wanted by heart. Slowing down is a great advise though. If teaching is your passion, then your failure must have hitten you really hard... and while you slowly rebuild your academic career, you can sort out what you really want to do with your life. The most important thing is you start doing something at some point.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I feel like a crazy ole crackpot whenever I suggest this to someone, let alone when I tell my story, but...

OP, you might be interested in my experience getting clean with NDMA receptor antagonists, specifically in my case: DXM+Piracetam-->Suboxone+Treatment

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...-the-Acute-Stage-of-Heroin-W-D-AND-addiction-!

Once I got over the first bump and got myself on suboxone and situated, well, shit. Although I know I have a long way to go, now I can remember what it's like to live one's life. It's like I forgot about how AWESOME simply existing could be, living a life in harmony with one's passions, when I was caught up in the spiral of active opioid/heroin addiction.

Yea, although you too are not yet there, once you get past this first bump, by which I mean putting an end to any dysfunctional/antisocial/bad habits/active addictions.... Well, then you'll be and feel SO. MUCH. BETTER. OFF.

 

[Missykins]

My guess is that the chronic amphetamine use put the zap on your brain and down-regulated your own receptors. Happens all the time, whether it be opiates, benzos, amphetamines, etc.--it's your's brain's response.

When you are getting back into the game, it's important to set small, easily achievable goals for yourself. So rather than "Get my M.A. in Education" your goal might be "pick out a program I would like" or "revamp my CV today." Otherwise, it's too easy to get overwhelmed.

And if there's nothing but shitty jobs available to you, then take one to pay the bills (I know it's hard) and do some pro bono work in your field. What you need is an opportunity to be professionally engaged, to make contacts, and to get references. You'd be surprised at what can come out of pro bono work.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The pro bono stuff is a GREAT idear missy!!!

 

[verso]

I wish that the root of all my troubles were a drug addiction, heroin or whatever, but I'm just not sure that's the case; I really don't, and I don't think that I'm fooling myself.

I gave up using for student teaching, and I spent my weekends writing lesson plans, scoring papers, not dope. And I swear, being told by a student's mother that I effectively changed her son's life by finding books he actually enjoys reading was a better feeling than any high I've ever experienced, however cheesy that may sound.

But now, having failed, and having lost that dream I once had of becoming a teacher, and having experienced a bout of some really bad luck, I just feel like it doesn't matter anymore

 

[Dave]

Ah, but the dream doesn't have to be lost. Just postponed. This all seems permanent now, but there's no reason that it has to be. The trouble is that apathy is self-reinforcing, and the longer that you stay like this the harder it will be to change, but this may be what you need right now. What I find really troubling is the financial hole that you're digging by ignoring your bills. Someday you will have your motivation back (not necessarily for teaching, but for something), but the deeper you dig yourself into poor finances the harder it will be to exercise that motivation, which will make it harder to take advantage of such events when they happen.

I hope that made some sort of sense. I'm getting sleepy, but I really did want to add another couple cents to this thread.

Oh, and if you weren't expecting thoughtful replies, you should hang out here more often!

 

[herbavore]

Verso, I have become well acquainted with apathy myself this last six months. For many years I have juggled an art career, teaching, being a dedicated mother and wife, having a rich and full social life, and interests and pursuits too numerous to count. It was part of my identity that I could have such a life of passion for everything I did; if I liked it then I loved it, if I loved it I poured my heart and soul into it. When my son died of an overdose it was as if someone severed my umbilical cord to life. Every day is a huge effort to reconnect to passion. I think that apathy and depression are two of the most terrifying things I have ever experienced.

One of the things that strikes me about your situation is that you had your goal knocked down and kicked in the head right as you were closing in on it. To have dealt with illness, depression and an unsupportive team of mentors is a lot to fight against and you should not beat yourself up at all for giving up when you did. Just based on your health alone, it may have been a wise decision. Maybe that can serve to make your come-back even stronger. You know what you need to do, you know what your weak areas are so use that knowledge to tailor your re-entry onto your goal path. As a teacher, I know that organization is right up there with inspiration. If that is a weakness of yours, there is no shame in it but you will have to fix it. I'm the most disorganized person in the world but for teaching I had to get help in order to develop that skill. Without organized delivery you can have all the inspiration in the world and not be able to actualize any of it in the classroom. Maybe that could be an achievable short-term goal--getting help in how to be more organized. (I'm thinking books but there are actual classes for this as well.)

The last thing I wanted to say is that we need you as a teacher so don't give up. People that struggle, that know the harder side of existence, that have fought demons of their own, that understand that not everything is a choice in this life, that know that learning is going beyond what is just on the agreed-upon surface, these are the kind of people that we want teaching our children. There are so many ways to teach. Aside from public education there are a wealth of alternative forms of education, there are after-school programs and programs through juvenile halls. Inspiring and teaching children is to connect with that part of yourself that is pure hope. You sound like that is the very part of you that is so wounded. As I said above, I know how formidable an enemy apathy is. The thing to remember is that it is a enemy. It can start to feel like a pretty comfortable place to be.

I do not think that you have to lose your dream. Accepting that you are not going to achieve it through the standard timetable is the first step. That timetable is not real. Only your life is real. You may look back on this time some day as the greatest teacher you ever had. I can honestly say, at 58 years old, that what looked to me like terrible mistakes and failures when I was young, have proved to be the raw material for the strength I can count on today. That is exactly what I hoped that my son would survive to experience, that complete shift in perspective. The most important thing that you can do is to find ways to accept and forgive yourself. You have not failed at anything. You are finding your way which is your job at your age.

Much love and buckets of empathy from a fellow fighter.

 

[Urgez]

But now, having failed, and having lost that dream I once had of becoming a teacher, and having experienced a bout of some really bad luck, I just feel like it doesn't matter anymore

i know this feeling more than i'm capable of admitting to myself. i was (am) in your EXACT situation re: the glamor of amphetamines and success. i bottomed out a few months ago, quit cold turkey, and subsequently experienced the greatest shock of my life: no matter how passionate i was about my dreams and goals, i couldn't even summon the energy to get out of bed. i had spent so long on amps designing and building this "ideal" life, but i had gotten to a point where i didn't even CARE to live that life anymore. it brought me no happiness that i had accomplished all these things, in fact, it tore me apart that i had sacrificed too much- sacrificed so much that i couldn't even enjoy what i had traded my health and soul for.

i'm not sure there's an easy answer. ive relapsed myself because the pain was too great during such a crucial time in my life, but there was a week or two at the tail end of my depression, where i felt happy *just living*. i am hoping that this moment happens for you too, and when you feel it, don't let ever let it go.