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Impressions from Basel

EN21

Bluelighter
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Nov 17, 2005
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139
Unfortunately I currently don’t have much time to be at the bl. Nevertheless I feel the urge to share some interesting things from the symposium that just spring into my mind:

1. Shulgins new book, the “Psychedelic Index Book” will probably come out in the middle of the year, and it contains, in opposite to the opinion of some guys, no information of any opioids.

2. He did not discover any psychedelic isoquinoline, and the psychedelic effect of many cacti bases probably on the principle we know from ayahuasca. IQs that are inactive alone, but are MAOIs, and PEAs that are also inactive alone, but the mixture is extraordinary psychedelic.

3. Some compounds he investigated cause seizures. When he feels the seizure coming, he takes a phenobarb and developed a strategy to prevent the seizure until the phenobarb does his job. (20 min) He says, it’s important to bring none of your thoughts to an end. When this happens, the seizure will come. So, when you feel that your thoughts on one topic comes near to an end, switch to any other thing, you think about. This works very effectively, in his opinion. (We all hope that we will never come in such situation!!)

4. The mushroom pope Gatz claimed that a newly in mushrooms discovered compound, the quat salt of psilocybin is also psychedelic. But this compound has never been made and tested by itself. (I anyhow doubt, that the quat can be active. It would be the first one.)

5. Nichols mentioned a new and (until now) unpublished compound with enormous psychedelic affinity. It is one of his modelled compounds, and it has a bizarre looking cyclobutane structure. (Formula is attached).

6. Unfortunately I could not join Shulgins last talk about psychedelics of the future. Perhaps there is anybody out there who could give a short overview. –It would be great.;)
 
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Thanks for the post, I suppose it's not surprising that the cyclocompound has good affinity, I wonder what he'll name it. Still I doubt to see it on any RC shopping list, looks like it might be a fucker to make.

And I too doubt a quaternary tryptamine from being activity, Quat DMT is inactive, and it goes again basic pharmacology for it to be centrally active.
 
5. Nichols mentioned a new and (until now) unpublished compound with enormous psychedelic affinity. It is one of his modelled compounds, and it has a bizarre looking cyclobutane structure. (Formula is attached).

It just looks like it wouldf be too unstable to do anything. A 4 membered ring fused with an aromatic nucleus would be incredibly ring strained - these sort of compounds will even normally undergo hydrolytic ring opening in even slightly acidic solutions.

The bit about a quaternary salt being active just isn't right - it's far too polar to fross the blood-brain barrier
 
aminomethylbenzocyclobutenes

Thanks, Cagliostro for this great article.

I just had an additional look at the Sci-Finder for all the unbelievers. I searched for the aromatic fused cyclobutane derivatives (the exact searching criteria are attached as formula).I got 415 hits and 145 references. Most of them have anything to do with the heart rate reducing stuff. As much as I understand from the headlines There is a compound called Ivabradine (formula attached). It seems to be a ligand to a cardiac pacemaker ion channel, the so called If (f for funny) and reduces the heart rate. But this is not the topic of our interest.
The more interesting entries concerning the 5-HT, D, and opioid receptors, analgetics and psychotropics are reported in patents. The refs. are the following:


Chaplan, Sandra; Dubin, Adrienne; Lee, Doo Hyun; Liu, Changlu. Treating nerve pain by targeting hyperpolarization-activated, cyclic nucleotide-gated channels (HCN). PCT Int. Appl. (2002), 133 pp. CODEN: PIXXD2 WO 2002100408 A2 20021219 CAN 138:33355 AN 2002:964194 CAPLUS


Chaplan, Sandra; Dubin, Adrienne; Guo, Hong-Qing; Lee, Doo Hyun; Liu, Changlu; Luo, Lin; Brown, Sean. Treating nerve pain by targeting hyperpolarization-activated, cyclic nucleotide-gated channels (HCN). PCT Int. Appl. (2002), 134 pp. CODEN: PIXXD2 WO 2002100328 A2 20021219 CAN 138:33351 AN 2002:964124 CAPLUS


Peglion, Jean Louis; Colpaert, Francis. Preparation of 3-piperidylbenzisoxazoles and analogs as psychotropic agents. Eur. Pat. Appl. (1991), 77 pp. CODEN: EPXXDW EP 428437 A1 19910522 CAN 121:108773 AN 1994:508773 CAPLUS


Peglion, Jean Louis; Millan, Mark; Rivet, Jean Michel. 1,4-Disubstituted piperazines, process for their preparation, and pharmaceutical compositions containing them as 5-HT1A receptor antagonists. Eur. Pat. Appl. (1992), 23 pp. CODEN: EPXXDW EP 490772 A1 19920617 CAN 117:151017 AN 1992:551017 CAPLUS


Peglion, Jean Louis; Colpaert, Francis. Preparation of 3-piperidylbenzisoxazoles and analogs as psychotropic agents. Eur. Pat. Appl. (1991), 77 pp. CODEN: EPXXDW EP 428437 A1 19910522 CAN 115:256149 AN 1991:656149 CAPLUS



Maybe somebody is interested in this stuff.
 
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Technically, due to the unsaturation present in the aromatic ring, it is a fused cyclobutEne derivative is it not?
 
Well, I spent some time in Rome after the symposium and I've been running a fever since I got back so I haven't had much time for checking things out here. I'll just add a few things to what EN21 has said.

So far 6 people have tried the cactus extract, 3 of them got violently sick with little in the way of psychedelic effects (including Sasha) and 3 had something which could be called a trip with a strong body load.

The compound Nichols flashed on the screen for 0.5s has 3 isomers. They managed to resolve them and only one is active at all, and it is POTENT (in the words of the guy who did the binding measurements). The idea being that anchoring the side chain to the aromatic ring restricts the possible confomations of the side chain, while only one isomer has a configuration which doesn't stick into the receptor and block binding. The guys in the lab have been calling it 2c-bb.

Sasha's last talk wasn't very interesting. He just talked about how he has made a series of 5-EtO-tryptamines but hasn't tried any of them yet.
 
It must kinda suck be Dr Shulgin in a way, when you go to those conferences. Heaps of stary eyed trippers, expecting you to deliver speeches to rock them to their very core... and I geuss he'd be most interested in the chemistry.

...all the people in the front row hoping he'll toss new psychedelics out like a lolly scramble.
 
^ Totally. I left their Q&A session after someone asked a stupid question about taking drugs when your pregnant and Dune 8(

I really enjoyed his last talk, sure he had no information on the activity of the 5-ethoxy tryptamines, but he really has an infectious enthusiasm. Him trying to mime the tryptamine's structure with his hands was great...

One other thing of note that he said, was that he had made and tasted most of the beta-keto phenethylamine analogs, and that most of those were active at similar levels to the corresponding PIHKAL compounds.
 
^ Yeah, there's that video circulating of people almost attacking Rick Doblin and John Halpern, which I'm told was taken at Basel [video]. Looks like there were some pretty "far out" people there.
 
specialspack said:
I really enjoyed his last talk, sure he had no information on the activity of the 5-ethoxy tryptamines, but he really has an infectious enthusiasm. Him trying to mime the tryptamine's structure with his hands was great...

I was just disappointed that he talked for 15 minutes about those compounds for which he knew nothing about and which I'd already heard him speak about/read about before. There was nothing new. But yeah, his hand gestures are always great = )

Something else I just remembered is that Christian Rätsch talked about a piece of fruit which grows in the Amazon that when placed on his tongue, felt "exactly like 75ug of LSD". The fruit hasn't been identified yet. He also mentioned some psychedelic eyedrops which are given to infants and children (females only if i remember right) in some part of the Amazon, every day before their first meal.

The first guy in the video to accuse Halpern is Marc McCloud, owner of the world's largest blotter art collection. The funniest parts are missing though---where he just jumps up in the middle of Halpern's talk about his research on MDMA for PTSD and starts calling him Agent Halpern.
 
BilZ0r said:
Indeed... You been to that conferences? What's it like?


I've been. It's fantastic, but if you're a neuroscientist you would probably think it was a bit flaky too - it's very philosophy heavy. In fact there's a breakaway conference of the Association for the Scientific Study of Consciousness which leaves out all the meditation, psychedelics and more esoteric philosophy stuff that can be found at the TASC conference.

But compared to Basel, TASC @ Tucson was much more rigorous and serious. The worst moment in Basel for me was when I was sat in the forum, and some guy handed out his "matrix" for rating the phenomenology of different substances. I told him I disagreed with lots of it (it was highly subjective), and he proceed to wave a pendulum over his hand, and tell me the reason I didn't see things the way he did was because my liver was 25% percent worse of than the average person. And, of course, the effect of LSD is mediated mostly by the liver. Albert Hofmann agreed with him, he said. He told me he could "see" this from looking at me. I laughed, and he said something to the effect that if i believed in hard science then of course I couldnt believe that anyone could see such a thing. To which I readily agreed....
 
^ That's the problem with psychedelics, they attract way too many fruit-loops full of all the mystico-newage bollocks. My response to people like that generally ranges from mild irritation through to (if having a bout of 'black dog' as Churchill called it),"wave that fuckin' thing at me and you'll be pulling it out of your arse".

They're funny when they appear in 'Cheech & Chong' films, but in real life, idiot-zealots like that just really get on my tits...
 
specialspack said:
But compared to Basel, TASC @ Tucson was much more rigorous and serious.

I wasn't in Tuscon, but I think you might think differently if you chose your events differently. I found the presentations from the Society for Medicinal Plants Research, MAPS, the Heffter Institute, and Gartz at least to be very rigorous and scientific (if sometimes a bit rushed). The forum "Towards an Adequate Drug Policy" was entirely free from quackery and I heard similar things about the talks by the Shulgins as well as by Rätsch. The only time I got annoyed the whole time (and I'm annoyed by BS quite easily) was when i accidentally listened to part of an astrologer's talk in one of the panoramas. Even then, it was only 15 minutes and I just took off my headset (he was speaking in German so it was easy to ignore) and read some literature until the next presenter came on.

Although the symposium did have its fair share of well-off flakes, the density of chemists, botanists, pharmacologists, MDs, mycologists, etc. was very high and each one of my days in Basel was packed full of meaningful and interesting conversations with likeminded individuals---I barely slept and only managed to consume a bit of alcohol and some hash the whole time.
 
Yes, I'd agree that the hard science - neuroscience, pharmacology - stuff at Basel was pretty rigorous. Where it fell down was in other areas - anthropology, philosophy, evolutionary theory, psychology.

Everything was presented without recognition of these other fields, without any serious attempt to locate psychedelics in a theoretical discourse outside of the conference walls. I was disappointed by the Beckley foundation talk (pseudo science), Beresford's talk (outdated philosophy) and what I saw of Narby (although I did talk to him afterwards and he seemed to have a grasp of other stuff going on).

As well, there seemed to be a general overtone to the conference that seemed to push science to the back, almost saying "that neuroscience is all very nice, but really, its not what LSD is about, which is spirtual, mystical stuff etc".
 
ChuangTzu said:
Although the symposium did have its fair share of well-off flakes, the density of chemists, botanists, pharmacologists, MDs, mycologists, etc. was very high and each one of my days in Basel was packed full of meaningful and interesting conversations with likeminded individuals---I barely slept and only managed to consume a bit of alcohol and some hash the whole time.

You were lucky - I seemed to stumble across more than my far share of hippies and psychoanalysts. I did meet some very interesting people though...
 
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