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I am now in treatment for opioid use and am free of heroin, but...

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Obiez

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I keep reading threads here about how people stopped their addiction by entering a MMT program or a bups program. Ever since bups came here (not long ago) the same has been happening, where before, you were lucky if your MMT doctor didn't taper you off within 6 to 12 months depending on the severity of your use.

I used methadone once for WDs on by my own hand, almost killed myself by listening to an idiot! Not the point.

This does not seem like any kind of solution to me. You substitute heroin for a lifetime on medical opiates? I am sorry to annoy anyone, but this is clearly an unscrupilous bunch of doctors profiting from your problem. If you want to keep getting high that is fine. But, if you are really trying to kick the habit, for real, methadone and or bups should be used in to combat the physical WD, not give you an even worse problem.

Sorry for the rant. I just, I don't get it.
 
Management should be looked at as a last resort. For an end of the line, severely and lengthy addicted individual who has tried all other routes of treatment and failed multiple times throughout the years. I agree that bupe and methadone should only be used acutely for the vast majority of people. It's a double edged sword.
 
^Yeah, it sucks, but the consequences of using opiates are devastating and some people are just about to lose everything and can't afford to keep fucking up over and over again....I hope you can stay clean, man.....I had no idea the shit I was stepping into when I got addicted....
 
Bupe or methadone shouldn't be used for life. IMHO, when you're ready to give up shooting dope, get on Suboxone. Your body will quickly stabilize and break the mental aspect of getting high and craving etc. once you are totally ready you taper and then hop off.

Being on bupe/methadone for a lifetime is ridiculous, might as well be dope or oxy. Also, methadone is stronger than dope in a lot of ways, so I never got why they used it as Maintenance/detox drug
 
mrflowers00 said:
i use bupe maintenance because i can't quit on my own i've tried like 7 times
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I'm not suggesting you don't, and the thread isn't about that. It's about how so many around here seem to have kicked heroin only to become even more addicted to pharmaceuticals by unscrupilous doctors profiting from their problem.
 
Obiez said:
I'm not suggesting you don't, and the thread isn't about that. It's about how so many around here seem to have kicked heroin only to become even more addicted to pharmaceuticals by unscrupilous doctors profiting from their problem.
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I don't fully disagree with your opinion, I actually partially share your view on the matter. In my opinion maintenance is there to serve the milti billion dollar underground opioid market. If I'm going to quit opioids, why use something that's more addictive. I've heard things like a rapid taper can decrease withdrawal, and while I'm sure they can, I'm also pretty certain they can't in the certainty that a benzodiazepine taper would.

Even still there are some positives. As another user pointed out to me, maintenance drugs can help an individual break away from a habitual cycle of needles, same friends, same setting etc. Another point is opioid relapse rates are the highest of any drug including tobacco, alcohol, and cocaine, so it's understandable that some people decide to hang up their boots and switch to maintenance drugs rather than watch their lives decline further and usually hit rock bottom.

If your point is, who are these people kidding when they switch to maintenance thinking they're going to quit, well that's not really something that can be quantified because who knows why people do what they do. Personally I tried scavenging for statistics or studies on whether or not maintenance drugs can help a user abstain from opioids by minimizing withdrawal or any other variable and I came back empty handed.
 
maintenence drugs are usually opioids themselves hence making the statment "abstain from opioids" useless.

Where I am from, rehab used to be - you get your 6 to 12 months of methadone, slowly tapering, and then it is off you go to deal with that chronic condition. A lot of people would relapse because while they were on the done they were not doing anything productive, made no lifestyle changes, and so the depression of quitting all opioids (which happens like it or not) slowly creeped up on them, and boom. Back to. Addiction is a chronic condition that demands serious lifestyle changes, and an understanding that things like coping with the lack of opioids is just a normal part of the routine.

As for the, "it gets them away from the people they used to...., the habits the had". That is true, only to substitute it with going to the clinic every x amount of days and meeting the same type of people there, which again, renders that argument invalid. I mean, your points are valid to some extent, and I see what you are saying, but it leads back to what I was saying, it's just substituting X with Y while X=Y.

I have no doubt that both substances mentioned have benefits for people trying to quit, but if you want to really get off the shit you have to get off all of the shit.
 
I'm not disagreeing with you, all I'm saying is it would be nice to provide hard facts to patients regarding the efficacy of these drugs in complete abstinence from all opioids. Until then, one can only speculate.
 
Are there some clinics that are unscrupulous and keep their patients addicted for profit? Of course. After all, the pharmaceutical industry is the same. They profit from drugs that people have to take for years so they don't fund drugs that actually cure people. A good example of this is ibogaine. It's illegal in the US and big pharma is completely disinterested. Why have addicts pay once for something that will cure them of addiction when they can keep them on buprenorphine and methadone for the rest of their lives. It's sickening, really.. they profit from keeping people sick.

However, that's not to say that methadone and buprenorphine are not without tremendous value. Used correctly, methadone stabilizes addicts so they can lead functional lives and so that they can also work on the problems that resulted in them using in the first place. Once that is done, they can begin to taper. A good methadone clinic will follow up and make sure that their patients are seeing their counselors and making progress as well as enforcing treatment plans. People should absolutely not just be left on methadone indefinitely.

And I agree with Chromophobia, using methadone is completely different from the experience of using say, heroin. You're going to a doctor's office like setting to receive your dose each morning, you see counselors each week, and it's relatively free from the stigma of illegal drug use. Whereas when you're addicted to heroin, you're in constant contact with other addicts, you have to go cop from a dealer daily, you're using multiple times idea (and probably IV), and you're going to be dealing with multiple health problems as a result of the drug abuse. MMT definitely gets you away from that world. Sure, you see other people there that are also addicts but it's different. You don't necessarily know the people there and they've chosen to go on MMT have made that step of getting off heroin. And I'm not a morning person, but having to get up early to get my dose has actually been a good thing for me. It forces me to get an early start on my day instead of waking up late, and as a result I've been more motivated and have been getting a lot more stuff done through out the day and not sleeping excessively.

Methadone saves life, period. But with all good things there's downsides. And greedy people after money, but hey that's life and a sad part of America. As long as patients on methadone have a treatment plan in place and are focused on getting off methadone within a reasonable time frame then methadone is an excellent tool.
 
Buprenorphine and methadone both have very long half lives. I think that is why they are favored maintenance drugs--the addict can dose once or twice a day instead of multiple times a day. I know there are more differences, but I think that is the most significant one.

The issue of maintenance vs. sobriety is a touchy one. Very complicated, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. If someone is able to function on bupe or done in a way they couldn't while on heroin, then I say more power to 'em. On the other hand, if someone feels very strongly that "clean" means "CLEAN", and they take the extra steps to kick the done/bupe, I respect that as well.
 
Obiez said:
I keep reading threads here about how people stopped their addiction by entering a MMT program or a bups program. Ever since bups came here (not long ago) the same has been happening, where before, you were lucky if your MMT doctor didn't taper you off within 6 to 12 months depending on the severity of your use.

I used methadone once for WDs on by my own hand, almost killed myself by listening to an idiot! Not the point.

This does not seem like any kind of solution to me. You substitute heroin for a lifetime on medical opiates? I am sorry to annoy anyone, but this is clearly an unscrupilous bunch of doctors profiting from your problem. If you want to keep getting high that is fine. But, if you are really trying to kick the habit, for real, methadone and or bups should be used in to combat the physical WD, not give you an even worse problem.

Sorry for the rant. I just, I don't get it.
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I don't agree..

While I do feel that in MOST cases this is true. The fact that MEthadone is just substituting an addiction.

But in some cases.. (ME).. opiates are the only thing that can solve their problems, and therefore, being on a legal opiate, vs. the terrible life situations of a heroin addict is VERY preferred.

Opiates are the only thing that can calm and therapize my manic depression. Therefore, I decided a while ago that I need to be on opiates to lead a happy succesful life. This turned out to be true for me, and I am now doing much better on methadone, I don't have manic symptoms or depression symptoms, and I don't have to go out to score every day, and I get my hit for a cheap price. I am going to stay on methadone for the rest of my life because it is the only thing that works for my manic depression.

So as you can see, people can benefit from a life of methadone maintenance, while maybe not everyone else does.
 
ilikedrugs77 said:
I don't agree..

While I do feel that in MOST cases this is true. The fact that MEthadone is just substituting an addiction.

But in some cases.. (ME).. opiates are the only thing that can solve their problems, and therefore, being on a legal opiate, vs. the terrible life situations of a heroin addict is VERY preferred.

Opiates are the only thing that can calm and therapize my manic depression. Therefore, I decided a while ago that I need to be on opiates to lead a happy succesful life. This turned out to be true for me, and I am now doing much better on methadone, I don't have manic symptoms or depression symptoms, and I don't have to go out to score every day, and I get my hit for a cheap price. I am going to stay on methadone for the rest of my life because it is the only thing that works for my manic depression.

So as you can see, people can benefit from a life of methadone maintenance, while maybe not everyone else does.
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Obiez said:
If you want to keep getting high that is fine.
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as you can see, you do agree with me
 
ilikedrugs77 said:
I don't agree..

While I do feel that in MOST cases this is true. The fact that MEthadone is just substituting an addiction.

But in some cases.. (ME).. opiates are the only thing that can solve their problems, and therefore, being on a legal opiate, vs. the terrible life situations of a heroin addict is VERY preferred.

Opiates are the only thing that can calm and therapize my manic depression. Therefore, I decided a while ago that I need to be on opiates to lead a happy succesful life. This turned out to be true for me, and I am now doing much better on methadone, I don't have manic symptoms or depression symptoms, and I don't have to go out to score every day, and I get my hit for a cheap price. I am going to stay on methadone for the rest of my life because it is the only thing that works for my manic depression.

So as you can see, people can benefit from a life of methadone maintenance, while maybe not everyone else does.
Click to expand...

You should research "endorphin deficiency." If opioids help you and antidepressants do not, chances are you have an endorphin deficiency, not manic depression. The symptoms are very similar, unfortunately doctors just treat those symptoms with antidepressants and classify you as depressed. My dad and I have endorphin deficiencies.. I've felt "wrong" ever since I could remember. Things that should have made me happy had no effect, I felt "flat" most of the time, I never had enough energy, and I would watch other people and not understand why I was just not like them. It was so easy for them to lead happy, healthy lives and here I was unable to get out of bed. My doctor prescribed me antidepressants when I was 16. All they did was make me feel crazy, which I was definitely not. I stopped taking them. At first I believed him when he told me I was depressed because hey, he was a doctor. Doctors know everything, right? I soon learned otherwise. I was never unhappy or suicidal, I just didn't feel right.

When I was 18, I started doing opiates and everything changed. For the first time in my life, I felt "right." It wasn't about being high for me at all, in fact after the first few weeks I didn't get high after that (until I picked up the needle and started banging H and opiates were ruined for me). But I was happy, I could be out and about all day without being exhausted, and I just felt happy and functional for the first time in my life.

I'm currently on MMT. However, I just can't "accept" being physically addicted to something for the rest of my life. I've been on MMT for 4 months and I'm slowly tapering.. I'm determined to find ways to boost my endorphin levels without being an opiate addict.
 
You seem to be neglecting to take into account the (usually) drastic increase in quality of life when you compare someone on bupe maintenance to the average heroin addict (and I do not mean the 0.1% of heroin addicts who have a high quality of life).

Furthermore, there is no real "high" from bupe after that first time or two. At least there is no high in my year or so on it, especially at the low dose i'm at.

I mean I cannot argue with the fact that a year ago I was lying, cheating, stealing, begging, robbing, [insert other verb here] for my fix. I flunked out of college and thought about walking in front of some traffic. Now i'm almost off suboxone, and am in the honors curriculum.

So I'm not really sure where your criticisms are stemming from. I also cannot see how you can legitimately sit there and go "Well, you're taking bupe right? Might as well be on any ol' opioid!" That is preposterous honestly. Just flat ridiculous.

Addiction is a chronic condition that demands serious lifestyle changes, and an understanding that things like coping with the lack of opioids is just a normal part of the routine.
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Once again for the average addict these things are IMPOSSIBLE to address during the course of active addiction. Good luck telling a dude after a monster shot of dope that "You've gotta make some serious lifestyle changes". The bupe can allow you to deal with all of that as you no longer have to deal with the struggle of getting "well" day in and day out.


Honestly it sounds to me like maintenance wasn't for you, so you want to tell everyone on maintenance they're not "clean" because you had a bad experience. I maintain the position that if you're just talking your suboxone day in and day out, and not doing heroin, the definition of "clean" at that point becomes irrelevant. Clean from what? Who cares? Your quality of life is (in most instances) much better.

Sure, maybe i'm not "clean" by your definition, but, i'm definitely not gettin high on skag.
 
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