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Human Perception

purplelights

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Feb 24, 2011
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A few months ago, I lost my faith in god (I was raised muslim). I started to believe mainly in science, and what we as human beings have discovered about our surroundings; such as scientific theories and laws. At the time I didn't believe in supernatural activity and just believed what I saw with my own eyes. The other day I was thinking about this and how human beings are so tiny compared to the universe (this was mainly the reason why I lost faith in god, because if humans are so minute compared to the universe then why would an all-powerful god punish us for our actions/sins?). Then I started thinking about how I believe what I perceive. It led to this question- if humans are so insignificant compared to the whole universe, wouldn't our perceptive abilities be just as insignificant? For example, what if we could see a hundred times stronger or hear a hundred times stronger than we already do? What would we actually see or hear? It tripped me out and now I don't necessarily rely on science for all the answers anymore. Although I still don't believe in my original faith, it certainly gave me a new perspective on the matter.

Hope this made sense. Can anyone relate to this idea?
 
I can relate.

I don't discount that that the universe is filled with wonders that we have yet to discover. But I don't believe any of it is supernatural. Rather, the natural universe is amazing in its own right. There is no need to believe in a supernatural god. And just because you don't doesn't mean that you can't have faith in things like morals and values which fall outside the realm of science but are just as important to humankind.
 
I sorta can too. I was raised christian not muslim. When I read the bible it just seems to contradict itself a lot. I don't know If there is a GOD or not but I think its more important to figure out through logical sensible information not some old book. Science is always changing and advancing so you can't go wrong with that.
 
A few months ago, I lost my faith in god (I was raised muslim). I started to believe mainly in science, and what we as human beings have discovered about our surroundings; such as scientific theories and laws. At the time I didn't believe in supernatural activity and just believed what I saw with my own eyes. The other day I was thinking about this and how human beings are so tiny compared to the universe (this was mainly the reason why I lost faith in god, because if humans are so minute compared to the universe then why would an all-powerful god punish us for our actions/sins?). Then I started thinking about how I believe what I perceive. It led to this question- if humans are so insignificant compared to the whole universe, wouldn't our perceptive abilities be just as insignificant? For example, what if we could see a hundred times stronger or hear a hundred times stronger than we already do? What would we actually see or hear? It tripped me out and now I don't necessarily rely on science for all the answers anymore. Although I still don't believe in my original faith, it certainly gave me a new perspective on the matter.

Hope this made sense. Can anyone relate to this idea?

IMO, god is the universe. In the same sense that the earth has its own intellect named gaia, so does the universe named krishna. And because God made man in the image of himself, what we are as human beings, are direct replicas of the universe. What i am saying is that within this body of ours contains the entire universe- all elements- earth, fire, water, air, space, rivers, streams, mountains, stars(neurons), etc. This body is in itself a direct replica of the universe through gods grace and glory.

It is said in alchemy which is as spiritually scientific as you can get, " as above, so below" what this means is, as is the heavens, so is the earth. As is god, so is man. So, we are direct replicas of god in a holographic universe, because we are the same quality as he. The difference however, lies not in quality, but in quantity. As god is a 10 ton brick of gold, we lay as gold particles. As god is the ocean, we are the drops of water. What a hologram is, is one image written within itself over and over again, creating the same image but on a larger scale, and if you are to take but one small piece of any part of the image, you would have in it all the information of the entire image. The same holds true for us. We are small people, in a small corner of the universe, in a galaxy far far away. BUt this does not leave reason for concern. If you understand thy self, all outer space is pointless. It wont matter how small we are in this unlimited and vast universe because the outer universe is a direct mirror opposite of the inner universe and if you know yourself, you would have known the entire outer universe.

About the term "supernatural", i conclude this term as false. There is no such thing as super natural because nothing can surpass nature. What i believe is going on, is the degradation of consciousness as a human species. We are so degraded and contaminated with false conceptions about reality and nature, that when we do see her amazing potential, we say it is "super natural" or beyond the capacities of nature. How can this ever be so?

The OP Said: The other day I was thinking about this and how human beings are so tiny compared to the universe (this was mainly the reason why I lost faith in god, because if humans are so minute compared to the universe then why would an all-powerful god punish us for our actions/sins?).

Let me guide you my friend. This is no need to lose faith in god. Yes, god is all powerful and there are punishments for our actions, but this is not the punishment of god, this is the law of karma. Although karma may be the law of god, It is always completely fair and for our own highest good. Imagine if there were no such thing as punishments eh? then all the demons would run a muck. So, god established some sort of karma, meaning whatever you do, the nature of that action is what you will get in return. Karma means doing. We are stuck in a never ending cycle of doing something, always obtaining more and more karma. If you do not want to be punished, leave no reason for punishment. Also, one mans hell is another mans paradise.

We are all the eternal soul changing bodies throughout various lifetimes. God and the universe has unlimited potency and opulence, he allows us to get whatever we would like to, go wherever we would like to, and be whatever we would like to. He has given us all the tools and equipment necessary and laid out rules so that this may stay in affect. Whatever we do is what says to the universe what it is that we would like. Because god is so manifest, he gives us these things judging by our actions and he does it in this way because we all change our minds so frequently, we dont even know what we want, and yet actions speak louder than words. So, If I spend my entire life eating meat, i am telling god and the universe that that is what i want to do. Lets say i eat meat for a living and am on tv testing different foods. Im showing god that that is what i want out of the universe. So i as i go on eating meat, i collect these vibrations of meat eating. Finally, i meet my demise and all these meat eating vibrations are there. The universe knows these vibrations and sees that i want to eat meat, so it then reincarnates me as a tiger or lion, etc, so that i may eat all the meat i want to. If however, i am a scholar on the transcendental teachings, i put all my beliefs and understanding toward the highest truth to be found and i carry out these vibrations. When i meet my death, the universe too sees these vibrations, and realizes that my main objective and what i want out of the universe is truth, so therefore, i will be delivered to truth

Now for your main question: if humans are so insignificant compared to the whole universe, wouldn't our perceptive abilities be just as insignificant? For example, what if we could see a hundred times stronger or hear a hundred times stronger than we already do? What would we actually see or hear? It tripped me out and now I don't necessarily rely on science for all the answers anymore. Although I still don't believe in my original faith, it certainly gave me a new perspective on the matter

I do not think in any way that humans are insignificant to the universe. I do, on the other hand, believe that we are the universe in motion, set in play as special characters that determine some sort of special fate, or maybe even just all for fun. But i remain solid in my belief of us humans being a significant part of the universe. As i have said, we are direct replicas of the universe, and as the universe has its various techniques for transcendentalism, so do we. You are talking about if we could see a hundred times better or hear a hundred times stronger, but all this would do is increase the rate of pornography and horrible music(lol a joke) Where does this increased vision and hearing stand compared to clairvoyance and clair-audience? Why, clairvoyance and clair-audience can transcend time and space. You are trying to see with your eyes and hear with your ears, but i think you should both see and hear from your innermost essence. The third eye is considered as the transcendental point of the body, it is said in thousands of books and so on. The third eye, if gazed through while in deep meditation and selfless service to the lord, may deliver one to the heights of transcendental ecstasy.
 
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Anybody that does any self-examination comes to this conclusion, or something similar to it. Here is a quote from Huxley's Doors:

Reflecting on my experience, I find myself agreeing with the eminent Cambridge philosopher, Dr. C. D. Broad, "that we should do well to consider much more seriously than we have hitherto been inclined to do the type of theory which Bergson put forward in connection with memory and sense perception. The suggestion is that the function of the brain and nervous system and sense organs is in the main eliminative and not productive. Each person is at each moment capable of remembering all that has ever happened to him and of perceiving everything that is happening everywhere in the universe. The function of the brain and nervous system is to protect us from being overwhelmed and confused by this mass of largely useless and irrelevant knowledge, by shutting out most of what we should otherwise perceive or remember at any moment, and leaving only that very small and special selection which is likely to be practically useful." According to such a theory, each one of us is potentially Mind at Large. But in so far as we are animals, our business is at all costs to survive. To make biological survival possible, Mind at Large has to be funneled through the reducing valve of the brain and nervous system. What comes out at the other end is a measly trickle of the kind of consciousness which will help us to stay alive on the surface of this Particular planet. To formulate and express the contents of this reduced awareness, man has invented and endlessly elaborated those symbol-systems and implicit philosophies which we call languages. Every individual is at once the beneficiary and the victim of the linguistic tradition into which he has been born--the beneficiary inasmuch as language gives access to the accumulated records of other people's experience, the victim in so far as it confirms him in the belief that reduced awareness is the only awareness and as it bedevils his sense of reality, so that he is all too apt to take his concepts for data, his words for actual things. That which, in the language of religion, is called "this world" is the universe of reduced awareness, expressed, and, as it were, petrified by language. The various "other worlds," with which human beings erratically make contact are so many elements in the totality of the awareness belonging to Mind at Large. Most people, most of the time, know only what comes through the reducing valve and is consecrated as genuinely real by the local language. Certain persons, however, seem to be born with a kind of by-pass that circumvents the reducing valve. In others temporary by-passes may be acquired either spontaneously, or as the result of deliberate "spiritual exercises," or through hypnosis, or by means of drugs. Through these permanent or temporary by-passes there flows, not indeed the perception "of everything that is happening everywhere in the universe" (for the by-pass does not abolish the reducing valve, which still excludes the total content of Mind at Large), but something more than, and above all something different from, the carefully selected utilitarian material which our narrowed, individual minds regard as a complete, or at least sufficient, picture of reality.

I came across this quote while coming down from a trip report, which you can read here if you're interested: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=473844&highlight=substancecode_mescaline

I've posted it before, but it seems to be so universal in its content that people often can relate to what I experienced.
 
Anybody that does any self-examination comes to this conclusion, or something similar to it. Here is a quote from Huxley's Doors:



I came across this quote while coming down from a trip report, which you can read here if you're interested: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=473844&highlight=substancecode_mescaline

I've posted it before, but it seems to be so universal in its content that people often can relate to what I experienced.

I completely agree with what was said there. I think i may have some additional insights on those truths.

It said that we are all at every second, the larger mind, but due to being overwhelmed by experience, we extract only a tidbit of information from this tremendous super mind, which contains in it everything everywhere and all times. That not only do we subconsciously protect ourselves from such an experience, but that it is also not our main interest as a species because it has nothing to do with preserving itself and keeping us alive. I agree with this. I believe, although it may be the ultimate objective for each individual, our species at large is not interested in it, because genes main objective is preservation of species. So, this is true by our material nature.

It then goes on saying that the experience of this tidbit of information which we extracted, is what we use to form languages and philosophies and is the base experience for "this world" because it limits us in such a way that one can never surpass the language, its as if we were put into a cage of linguistics and ignorance, never to escape and face the truth of reality.
I believe the extractor, the thing which extracts information from the super mind and carries it into language, is none other than the ego. The ego sees what it wants to see out of an unlimited manifestation, and carries it back for it owns concern.

This is stated here: "the victim in so far as it confirms him in the belief that reduced awareness is the only awareness and as it bedevils his sense of reality, so that he is all too apt to take his concepts for data, his words for actual things. That which, in the language of religion, is called "this world" is the universe of reduced awareness, expressed, and, as it were, petrified by language."

After making this point that we are all limited to experience by our own language amongst one another, as it causes us to depend on each other and thus restricts us, It then goes on saying that the "other worlds"(those being different than "this world"- the one we created through language), have many different elements and are just a minute expression of the mind at large. Which basically means, that there is only one total awareness, which has several different aspects.


This is stated here: "The various "other worlds," with which human beings erratically make contact are so many elements in the totality of the awareness belonging to Mind at Large."

It then carries on, by saying that some people, whether through birth capability, or through mystical practices, or psychedelic drugs, are able to bypass this special extracting process of the larger mind into the smaller mind, and thus experience the larger mind. Without such means, one may never know this larger mind because the only real way of knowing anything is through local language(direct experience,not word play). This is so, because in order to experience the larger mind and stop its extraction into the smaller mind, one cannot simply think his way there, not through any logic, unless that logic partakes in experience. The extraction process can never cease merely through thought, for thoughts are the result of the extraction process! how can the end result ever remove its cause?


This is stated here: Certain persons, however, seem to be born with a kind of by-pass that circumvents the reducing valve. In others temporary by-passes may be acquired either spontaneously, or as the result of deliberate "spiritual exercises," or through hypnosis, or by means of drugs. Through these permanent or temporary by-passes there flows, not indeed the perception "of everything that is happening everywhere in the universe" (for the by-pass does not abolish the reducing valve, which still excludes the total content of Mind at Large), but something more than, and above all something different from, the carefully selected utilitarian material which our narrowed, individual minds regard as a complete, or at least sufficient, picture of reality

after carefully analyzing this wonderful quote, i come to this conclusion:There is a larger mind, or super conscious, or god. This larger mind, super consciousness and god is everything to everyone. It knows everything across time. This supreme something, is a form of energy to be experienced. The problem though, is that we do not go about or lives experiencing. We go about our lives through language and thought, but not experience. Constantly we are chasing after some false hope or dream, when everything we need is here now. We do this because its in our language and our language is created by the ego, which keeps us running after nothing, never to experience the here and now. SO, we are just ego's walking around, not experiencing anything and feeding false linguistic data into one another. Our mindlessness has us on the level of animals or robots and is very self limiting. How can we be stuck in our minds, and yet, be so mindless? its sad, really. So then, how may we get out of this cage of linguistics and jump into the domain of experience? I say through the answer lies in ego-loss, through any means. Whether it be meditation, mantras, selfless devotional service, psychedelics, etc. Any means of which you can use to help dissolve your ego, is probably your new best friend. Why? because you will soon find out that your ego is suffering. Your ego is your own hell, which you created! for many many lifetimes, this ego of yours has wanted something; lust, love, greed, power, money, who knows? and because it wants so many things, it is constantly looking for each and every one of them. BUt this searching for something specific draws us back from the entire experience of reality. Its as if we are staring at a huge apple tree, with all of its glory and beauty, sitting in a hillside with sun glowing behind it. The wind blows by and you can see in the tree, the beauty of the wind, as it blows through each leaf. How tremendous a sight eh? Well, lets say you were to get attached to just one leaf on that tree. What you start seeing will quickly change. You may no longer see the beauty of the entire tree and hillside and sun and the wind, no no no, all you can see now is that one leaf, that one attachment. This is why the buddha said do not be attached to things. It was a means to drop your ego! drop your suffering!

Another example: I hold in my hands an amazing picture of a thousand details. If i hold it up to a room of 10 or 100 people, each different person would see in that one picture something different. Why is this so? it is because we are looking for something different. We are all looking for somehting different because we all want something different. we all want something different because it is our ego's desire. If we may drop our attachment to the ego, drop our desire and not want to see anything specific, we may then and only then, see the one picture in all of its thousand details.

So you see, this ego of ours is our main problem and is the reason why we cannot handle the supermind, because we are stuck and attached to the world. We want the truth, but we cant handle the truth. How can we handle something as ultimately liberating as the truth, if we arent ready to let go?

Once we drop our ego and our attachments to desires, then we may exit the linguistic world of chasing after nothing, and enter into the now; into experience. Through persistent effort and constant inner practice, or possibly even immediately, one may experience this Larger mind. It all depends on the intensity of your being and non attachment.
-peace and love.
 
I think you're on the right track, but there is no need to get rid of the ego. Saying we have to get ride of the ego is simply reinforcing the egoic state.

Just be; realize that there is no such thing as improvement-- everything is perfect just the way it is-- we simply have to realize this. Once you do, one cannot help but go about life smiling, for the 'secret' to this thing called life has been hiding in plain sight the entire time.

:)
 
Thats exactly what I was on about when I said to drop attachment to desires. to drop the attachments of desires is to JUST BE because it is the attachments that draw us away from being. The state of mind we are in when we are in pursuit of these attachments is the ego. Is this true?
 
I cannot believe in a spirtual god, but I am open to a scientfic god. A race that has become so advanced that they are gods to us. BTW i was raised Mormon :( which i feel did me more harm then good because of the idea of going to hell scared me as a child. Also when I see all the images the Hubble telescope has shown us I have a hard time believe somewhere out there is a supernatural man that secretly controls everything. Like the OP if there is a god or something after life why would they punish me since I am so insignificant that my sins/mistakes wouldn't matter to them.
 
I cannot believe in a spirtual god, but I am open to a scientfic god. A race that has become so advanced that they are gods to us. BTW i was raised Mormon :( which i feel did me more harm then good because of the idea of going to hell scared me as a child. Also when I see all the images the Hubble telescope has shown us I have a hard time believe somewhere out there is a supernatural man that secretly controls everything. Like the OP if there is a god or something after life why would they punish me since I am so insignificant that my sins/mistakes wouldn't matter to them.


Who is the founder of all sciences? who is the keeper of natures law? How come nature stays self similar across scale in such a beautiful fashion? Why do atoms spin around the nucleus, the same way that planets spin around the sun, the same way that star clusters spin around the galaxy, etc.? Who has created such a glorious creation all the way from the macrocosm, to the microcosm? I submit to you that there is a transcendental god. That he is not just impersonal, but also personal. that he is our collectivity, as well as independent and true to his own nature.

You speak of a race so advanced that they become gods to us. You must be talking about some sort of alien. I have read about such beings like the reptillians, and others, and perhaps they may be some sort of gods to us, as we worship their fancy technological avancement. But this is false worship. I believe that there is only one god who created this entire creation, not just our galaxy, but this entire ocean of galaxies, and its all governed by the supreme self, or paramatman. As we all are, so is the self in all things. As the self in all things, the one self is forever manifest. This is true for all sentient beings in every part of existence, from here to some distant galaxy. We are all ruled by this same one god of the entire universe, and they may be advanced to us, as we are advanced to orangutangs. There is no difference in gods law. Everything has the same ruling of the self. But still, we may do whatever we wish to.

You speak of the hubble telescope as being a window into the depths of our existence, as it peers through lightyears far away, showing a variety of planets, and stars, and distant galaxies. But this is all just matter. The beauty you see through that telescope is the same beauty i see through this flower. It isnt the stars and the planets and the galaxies that creates in you a love for god, some scientific god out there, but the mere beauty of it all. And who is this creator of all the beauty in the universe? from the flower, to the galaxy light years away? not man and his so called "advanced" technology, but instead, nature. God has created airplanes, its called the dragon fly. We think we are kings, but are the princes. We want to be the father, but we are the sons. Oh, how we envy the father.

as far as what you said about god, why would he punish you becuase ur so insignificant to him? As if he were some big bully in the sky. He doesnt punish you, you punish yourself. As the buddha said " you will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger!" this also holds true in the bhagavad-gita. In the bhagavad-gita, krishna himself (the supreme personality of godhead) says that upon the souls entrance into material nature, there are 3 modes, or states of mind, in which he can inhibit throughout all of his activities. these states of mind are like attitudes and it is from our attitudes that concludes whether what we do is good, passionate, or ignorant, which would be "bad". So, the determination of whether or not our actions are positive, negative, or neutral, lies not in the action itself, but in the attitude that started the action. And as we assume these attitudes, whether it be goodness, passion, or ignorance, these attitudes, or modes of being, attach to our soul. As we exit the body, the collection of vibrational freqencies of these 3 modes of being, determine the outcome of our being and next carnation.

If you would like to learn more about the three modes of material nature and how they influence our karma, please read here. http://www.asitis.com/14/1.html

(read the english translations and click the next arrows located below. the site is weird where you have to read each one individually)
 
i can relate too, but for me, we are just a random evolution of matter. i do not think that we have a purpose for living, we are just a fruit of hasard. and i think that if there was a "god" or something that is just ruling our decision it would probably be an extraterrestrial... just imagine how many possibilities of life there is in the universe! and for me, i think our perception is bigger than we think. we are just influenced by the universe without knowing it, by magnetic field, gravity, dark matter or whatever there is up there.

everytime we look at the sky, this deep infinite expanding space, we are perceiving some information from far away, but our conscious brain is just not enough
complex to make us feel the information. and my hypothesis is that while on psychedelic we use our unconscious and our conscious brain togheter so we can "feel" the influence of the universe, and by the same time adapting it to our life faster than it would normally take.

we are so small compared to the rest, so if big thing attracts smaller thing, or just influence them, cauz that is how i think gravity works, them we must be influenced by a bunch of thing.

and while on psychedelic, i get most of my insight while looking in a clear sky. so yea that was my hypothesis about the human perception
 
Thats exactly what I was on about when I said to drop attachment to desires. to drop the attachments of desires is to JUST BE because it is the attachments that draw us away from being. The state of mind we are in when we are in pursuit of these attachments is the ego. Is this true?

Well, you also said we need to get rid of the ego, we need to dissolve the ego-- in effect: the ego is bad.

I'm just pointing out that trying to defeat the ego is still feeding the ego.

I think Adyashanti can explain it better than I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLQD90Las5c
 
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^ And saying ego is bad is you realizing the ego is still there. As it's been said; who the Hell cares what you do and do not believe? Are you seeing the beauty around you? Are you enjoying the rainy days? The bumps and bruises you endure along your path? Can you smile on even the most "horrific" days when you're stressed out, simply because you enjoy living?

If you said yes to all of these, you're well on your way. Keep working toward inner peace. And whoever doesn't like it, you shouldn't find yourself needing.
 
Well, you also said we need to get rid of the rid, we need to dissolve the ego-- in effect: the ego is bad.

I'm just pointing out that trying to defeat the ego is still feeding the ego.

I think Adyashanti can explain it better than I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLQD90Las5c

No no, i am not trying to say to defeat the ego, because i agree that the action of trying to do so would still be feeding into the ego, thus prolonging the problem.

Trying to defeat the ego is an attachment to the ego being defeated. This attachment is the problem and could be what keeps ego alive.

If all attachments to all desires are dropped, there you will remain, without an ego. Because ego is where the attachments to desires are.

I do not mean that you can not have desires, this is a major confusion. Desires are only natural and it is by nature you will desire things, so desire isnt the problem. It is the grasping and clinging to desire that is the problem and that is what creates ego, which holds on to wants and is also what binds us.
 
^ And saying ego is bad is you realizing the ego is still there. As it's been said; who the Hell cares what you do and do not believe? Are you seeing the beauty around you? Are you enjoying the rainy days? The bumps and bruises you endure along your path? Can you smile on even the most "horrific" days when you're stressed out, simply because you enjoy living?

If you said yes to all of these, you're well on your way. Keep working toward inner peace. And whoever doesn't like it, you shouldn't find yourself needing.

Well said! :)
 
I think we're basically getting at the same thing-- cheers.

Yes i believe so too, Cheers mate :)

I found this quote, i think its right on point!

"Seek and you will lose.
Dont seek, and you can get it immediately.
Stop, and it is here.
Run- it is no where. "
 
Very interesting replies everyone. High Yogi, I really like your point of view. It makes a lot of sense to me. Wish I could add something more insightful, but I honestly can't think of anything at the moment. :P
 
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