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Tryptamines How well to fumarate salts of tryptamines hold up at room temperature?

Xorkoth

Xorkoth

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I recently got a new "box" for my psychedelic collection, which includes slots to hold each of my labeled amber vials. Up until now, I have been keeping them in a "closet box", a "freezer box", and the refrigerator, for my mixed liquid solutions. All of these boxes have had no partitions, so they just have a bunch of vials in them and since my collection is extremely extensive at this point (~75-80 things, I am not sure exactly where I'm at right now), it can be quite difficult to find what I am looking for in a pile of vials. That's why I got the new box (it's actually a padded essential oil "briefcase"). I have moved my closet box, which is room temperature already and includes everything that isn't a tryptamine, into the new box, and alphabetized them by category. My liquid solutions will stay in the fridge because they need to be kept cold. Which brings me to my question. Does anyone know how well the fumarate salts of tryptamines actually keep? We all know that tryptamine freebases and HCL salts are not very stable, but the fumarate salts are much more stable. But just HOW stable are they? Stable enough to last for many years without degradation, at room temperature, inside amber vials, in the dark? I would really love to move as much as possible into the new, organized box, but I am not willing to sacrifice long-term stability for what is more or less a trivial reason.

Any thoughts, or better yet, evidence? I will say I have had some AMT fumarate (succinate actually come to think of it) that has been sitting in my closet box for years, with absolutely no noticeable degradation, either visually or in potency. I have also had my vial of 5-MeO-MiPT fumarate in my closet box for years and years, since 2014 or 2015, with no noticeable change (not sure why, but it's a useful data point). But just looking for anyone else's experiences or evidence.

There are a few things I will definitely keep in the freezer, I have some unsubstituted tryptamine freebases which will stay there (DMT/MPT/MALT/EPT/MET), but I'm hoping that's all, besides the liquid solutions.
 
islander20 said:
Have 4-aco-dmt fumarate that I left in a hot/cold attic for 5 years. No sign of decreased potency, maybe a bit more brown.
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I was gonna say, I accidently ended up with an ass ton more 4-aco-dmt than I ever wanted, and I've kept it the way you do Xork, at room temp in an amber vial, locked in a box. None has turned colors (though the business card I use to put it in gel caps has black staining) or lost potency whatsoever.

I don't even bother to put DMT, 5-meo-dmt (HCL) or LSD in the fridge or freezer. My room temps are never above 75 degrees F. Can't speak to the 5-meo/DMT losing potency or not (haven't tried either) but the acid stays good. Albeit, the 25 strip of AL-LAD I had seemed to change color and degrade, but I also think I was getting hotspots with that blotter... it was hard to tell.

I dunno man, I've never bothered with the fridge/freezer for anything, even liquid (save for methadone which would have otherwise molded), and I can't say I've seen any noticeable losses. The 4-aco-dmt definitely holds up to everything but moisture. I'm more scared that moisture will creep in with a fridge, than I am with 75F and below temps being bad for my stash. I've done all the research I care to on the subject (a lot, too much lol) and I don't think it's worth fretting over unless room temp becomes 78F+.
 
Yeah the freezer does have a lot of moisture, though presumably if you have them sealed in amber vials, and let them rise to room temp before opening them, that shouldn't be an issue (in the fridge would be a different story). I have zero degradation for any of my things in the freezer. But it might be unnecessary, it sounds like,
 
Xorkoth said:
Yeah the freezer does have a lot of moisture, though presumably if you have them sealed in amber vials, and let them rise to room temp before opening them, that shouldn't be an issue (in the fridge would be a different story). I have zero degradation for any of my things in the freezer. But it might be unnecessary, it sounds like,
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I luckily have access to a cold storage chemical facility which basically at freezer temperature.
I think if you have very pure tryptamine fumarates they should at least a few years with minimal degradation at room temp....
Now my 4-aco-dpt has a strong acetic acid smell which I suspect is left over from the adding acetoxy group to the DPT (even came from the lizards!?!?)
But I would be very nervous about that one degrading .....so I just keep everything at a building out of my city which I'd rather drive to pick up what I need rather than keep anything at my house which is another good move as far as I'm concerned.
But I do think if you a very pure synth you should be good for several years before anything but minor degradation (color change) but potency should still be active for quite a while even after color change has occurred.
 
Xorkoth said:
Yeah the freezer does have a lot of moisture, though presumably if you have them sealed in amber vials, and let them rise to room temp before opening them, that shouldn't be an issue (in the fridge would be a different story). I have zero degradation for any of my things in the freezer. But it might be unnecessary, it sounds like,
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If you can do it safely, then why not? I'm just not sure of any 'airtight' containers to be honest. I feel the margin for error is too high so I choose the lower risk lower payout type choice. My DMT or 5-meo-dmt might have degraded, no way to be sure. My acid was good last I checked. Non tryptamine stuff is certainly good, and I keep my benzo solutions at room temp of course.

Most studies I've read have pointed to all major pharmaceutical drugs standing the test of time at ~70F, which is generally where I keep stuff. I'm lucky to have a cool bedroom (temp wise lol) because of the AC unit design.


I'd love to hear from anyone who has experienced degradation though. What were the circumstances and storage mechanisms and such?
 
Ballz_Trippington said:
I luckily have access to a cold storage chemical facility which basically at freezer temperature.
I think if you have very pure tryptamine fumarates they should at least a few years with minimal degradation at room temp....
Now my 4-aco-dpt has a strong acetic acid smell which I suspect is left over from the adding acetoxy group to the DPT (even came from the lizards!?!?)
But I would be very nervous about that one degrading .....so I just keep everything at a building out of my city which I'd rather drive to pick up what I need rather than keep anything at my house which is another good move as far as I'm concerned.
But I do think if you a very pure synth you should be good for several years before anything but minor degradation (color change) but potency should still be active for quite a while even after color change has occurred.
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I'm not worried about a few years, I'm worried about long-term. I will never go through my entire stash and I am a collector. I'm looking to pass my collection on one day, so I'm taking the long view
 
Xorkoth said:
I'm not worried about a few years, I'm worried about long-term. I will never go through my entire stash and I am a collector. I'm looking to pass my collection on one day, so I'm taking the long view
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I'm certainly no expert...but I would err on the side of caution and actually if possible....I know it won't work with your briefcase fir vials) but I would better if each vial was individually vacuum sealed and then put into something like a freezer....I don't have that luxury unfortunately because I look after my elderly mom and we have respite nurses staying at our house occasionally so i can't keep anything in the freezer that someone might find looking for food for my mom or whatever.
But if you're able too I feel very strongly feel that air tight vial in a vacuum sealed pack in a freezer would keep your tryptamines as free from degradation as possible.
 
I actually bought a vacuum sealer some years back for my lysergamide blotters, after a bunch if AL-LAD turned dark gray. So I have the means to do so. Wish I could get a temperature and humidity controlled briefcase somehow, keep it no humidity, below freezing. That would be ideal. Maybe possible I could just get a micro freezer to keep in my closet that just holds my stash.

On the other hand, they have found samples of mescaline cactus in ancient burial sites that are estimated at like 5000 years old, which are still active. Phenethylamines seem to be extraordinarily stable in HCL salt form. It's the tryptamines I am more worried about.
 
Xorkoth said:
I actually bought a vacuum sealer some years back for my lysergamide blotters, after a bunch if AL-LAD turned dark gray. So I have the means to do so. Wish I could get a temperature and humidity controlled briefcase somehow, keep it no humidity, below freezing. That would be ideal. Maybe possible I could just get a micro freezer to keep in my closet that just holds my stash.

On the other hand, they have found samples of mescaline cactus in ancient burial sites that are estimated at like 5000 years old, which are still active. Phenethylamines seem to be extraordinarily stable in HCL salt form. It's the tryptamines I am more worried about.
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Absolutely....I'm not worried whatsoever about my phenethylamines! But my Al-lad and eth-lad turned a grayish color as well which is what prompted me to move all my chemicals to a cold storage facility....also, it gives me the benefit of not having to keep any chemicals at my house!
My Al-lad and eth-lad have not seemed to loose any potency but I can clearly see that the edges of my sheet of ETH-LAD as dark gray and it progressively is more white towards the center which made me think I need a better storage solution lol.
Since moving to cold storage several years ago there has been no noticeable color change on the Eth or AL.
I also have absolutely everything vacuum sealed....I don't think you'll have to worry to much about moisture if it's in vacuum sealed package....I think the closet freezer is a very very good investment!!!
 
Xorkoth said:
I could have a better system, but I don't think it needs to be perfect. The important thing is to have some sort of box that closes, just to keep them together and away from the moving air from opening and closing the freezer. Since they're below freezing, the moisture doesn't matter. It only matters if it gets inside to the chemicals, and when you're taking them out. The standard 1 dram amber vials you can buy on Amazon are perfect, they screw on tight and keep your chems safe from air and moisture. The reason you let them raise to room temperature before opening them is because of condensation, yes. If you open them, it can get on the inside of the glass, from what I have read. But closed, it just forms on the outside, and quickly disappears when it reaches room temperature. I have never had any problems with this.

With tabs, well, with regular LSD, I just keep them in a sealed jar in a drawer in my closet, at room temperature. I have never noticed any degradation of LSD except when stored in poor conditions, like in a sandwich baggie on a shelf, or if it is stored in a damp location. If you keep air, light, and heat away, they're fine. AL-LAD and ETH-LAD, however, do degrade at room temperature. Sadly, many of my tabs, about 30-40 of each, turned dark gray after a few years being stored alongside my LSD, and the potency is notably reduced. So I decided to store them, plus my newer ones that hadn't degraded, in the freezer. But, being paper, I felt I had to go a step further to avoid the moisture from the freezer. So I bought a vacuum sealer, and sealed 10 strips into airless, sealed bags. That way, I only open up 10 at a time. I have had them stored for years, and the ones that were new and still white are still just as white as the day I got them.

Lastly, the freezer may be overkill for most of my tryptamines, but old habits die hard. Back in 2003 when I started in this game, all the tryptamines were being sold as freebases or HCL salts, and they were notoriously unstable and would degrade quickly unless kept in the cold. But since then, they are mostly fumarate or succinate salts, which seem to be shelf stable. Still, I don't trust them to be as stable as phenethylamines, so I keep them in the freezer to be safe. I also have some freebases (MPT, MiPT, DPT, MALT, EPT), which I'm quite certain would degrade rather quickly at room temperature.

I just said a lot of words to really say a couple of simple points: for long term storage of any drugs, the things you need to avoid are heat, light, moisture, and air. Tryptamines are less stable than phenethylamines, but the fumarate salts seem like they may be stable enough to make the freezer unnecessary. But as long as you keep them sealed in amber vials and only open them after they reach room temperature, you'll be all good using the freezer.
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I have just received my Amber vials with high quality caps, as you suggested in the other thread, xokorth.

So you said phenyls and dissos last seemingly forever at lower room temps away from light/humidity. Fine. I’ll leave them in vials where they currently are (ground floor closet).

Tryptamines I will overkill with the freezer.

How about dissos??
 
I am not positive, but dissos seem to be very stable at room temperature, at least by and large. I have never seen anything that resembles degradation in any of mine (3-MeO-PCP/PCE, O-PCE, DCK, MXE, MXPr, MXiPr, DMXE, FXE, and ephenidine). Well, the FXE is new, so it's hard to say. And I will say that I had 2 doses of MXE stuck to the side of a baggie and that baggie was, of course, far from airtight, and after some years, the MXE stuck to it turned a golden brown color, though it was still very potent and magical.

I forgot about this thread. I still have my tryptamines in the freezer, but I would sure love it if I could have my whole collection in my briefcase, because I like opening it and seeing almost all of the vial slots full 🤓 I may yet make the move. My girlfriend would also like it better if I didn't have a box full of research chemicals in the freezer.
 
Xorkoth said:
I am not positive, but dissos seem to be very stable at room temperature, at least by and large. I have never seen anything that resembles degradation in any of mine (3-MeO-PCP/PCE, O-PCE, DCK, MXE, MXPr, MXiPr, DMXE, FXE, and ephenidine). Well, the FXE is new, so it's hard to say. And I will say that I had 2 doses of MXE stuck to the side of a baggie and that baggie was, of course, far from airtight, and after some years, the MXE stuck to it turned a golden brown color, though it was still very potent and magical.

I forgot about this thread. I still have my tryptamines in the freezer, but I would sure love it if I could have my whole collection in my briefcase, because I like opening it and seeing almost all of the vial slots full 🤓 I may yet make the move. My girlfriend would also like it better if I didn't have a box full of research chemicals in the freezer.
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Last question (probably not):

I’ve read that constant temp variation for lysergamides degrades them, so you don’t want to take them in and out of the freezer over and over. Does that hold true for tryptamines or other molecules, as far as you or anyone knows?
 
Temperature variations are more or less “damaging” to stability of all substances but for most it’s so negligible effect that you don’t have to worry about it at all. Even in case of lysergamides I think people think temperature variation degrades them but true is that water condensation when taking it out of fridge is what damages them.
 
SpiralusSancti said:
Temperature variations are more or less “damaging” to stability of all substances but for most it’s so negligible effect that you don’t have to worry about it at all. Even in case of lysergamides I think people think temperature variation degrades them but true is that water condensation when taking it out of fridge is what damages them.
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Thanks for the reply. I guess I’ll wait for others to chime in because I have read so many times that temperature changes are bad that I feel like I need to hear your (perfectly reasonable sounding) argument repeated by others to believe it.
 
Xorkoth said:
Yeah the freezer does have a lot of moisture, though presumably if you have them sealed in amber vials, and let them rise to room temp before opening them, that shouldn't be an issue (in the fridge would be a different story).
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What's the different story with the fridge?
I keep all mine in mason jars in the fridge, with desiccant/ silica packs to hopefully absorb any moisture. I rarely remove from the fridge these days, and have almost always let the jar warm up before opening. The lid will actually make a popping sound once it's warmed up. Same storage for everything, LSD, DMT, 2cx, 4homipt and 4acodmt (both fumarate I believe)
 
It's because the fridge is full of moisture. So is the freezer, but it's all locked up in ice in the freezer. The fridge is not a good idea for long-term storage, even with silica packets. I mean you're definitely taking all the right precautions, but you'd be better off storing them in a dark closet, I think. Or the freezer. At least, that's what I would do. All my phenethylamines and more stable tryptamines (like AMT fumarate for example), and dissos, I keep in amber vials, inside an essential oils briefcase (so there are plots for the vials), in a closet. And then my less stable tryptamines I keep in the freezer, in amber vials, in a box with silica. And my AL-LAD and ETH-LAD, I keep in vacuum sealed pouches in strips of 10, also in the freezer. But my LSD is in the closet in a jar. Never had a single issue with LSD degrading in a jar in the closet, but some blotter I kept in the fridge became virtually inactive after a couple of years
 
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