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how to have a spiritual experience/grow spiritually without the 12 steps (question!)

bbbworship

Bluelighter
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Apr 7, 2006
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I'll preface this off by saying that at one point in my life, the 12 steps (I attended AA and CA) was a good fit for me. Over a two year period, I went through the steps, and when I did the work, something truly phenomenal happened; after reading my 4th step inventory to my sponsor (step 5) I entered a unique headspace that was strongly reminiscent of classic psychedelic tripping for the next few hours. I immediately understood the "god is love" slogan, however cliche it may be. My best guess is that I had just gotten my first taste of true ego dissolution. It felt like I was in the presence of "god", or some entity from a higher state of consciousness that loved me and wanted me to stay clean from drinking and drugs. This was accompanied by an overwhelming state of bliss, as if I had just eaten around 75 mg of MDMA! Anyway, for a while after that I became extremely passionate about the program, doing anything and everything I could to keep working the steps and helping people when I wasn't busy with something else.

But then after a few months the passion died. My depersonalization started to grow again. And losing my good paying job was the last straw. I gave up on the 12 steps because I lost my faith in god again, ("it" never seemed to be there or guide me when I needed the help the most) and from this new outsider's perspective I began to notice the inherent dogma underlying the program. I also don't believe in complete abstinence from all substances or in having to admit to yourself that you're "powerless," whatever the hell that even means...

So basically, I want to become a spiritual person and access these states of consciousness again.(but I still want to continue using drugs recreationally) I also wants this peace that everybody talks about in spiritual texts. But there doesn't seem to be any real manual out there for getting around, other than converting to a religion like Buddhism, which totally isn't my style (agnostic to the end!) Is there anyone here that would be willing to chime in, maybe share some of their own experiences with this stuff? It would be greatly appreciated; thanks guys!
 
I have some thoughts on this. Let me preface this by describing my path through my twenties a bit. I developed a 10 year, severe opiate addiction through my entire twenties, literally age 20 to age 30. I tried the NA thing towards the end, and I found it to be a fairly destructive mindset, and it really only allows for spirituality in one sense, the Christian god concept. I, too, did not wish to omit drugs from my life entirely. I had a life-crippling problem with opiates, to be sure, but I found the underlying message of "once and addict, always an addict" to be really detrimental. I simply do not believe that is necessarily the case, and my proof is that it is not the case for me. I'm about to turn 33 now, and it's been over 2 years since I quit opiates. I used ibogaine, which really helped, in addition to rooting out the physical and mental opiate addiction, with realigning me or perhaps reminding me of my inherent strength as an individual. Since then I have had absolutely no cravings for opiates even one time, I am able to see that opiates were, for me, an entirely detrimental thing and that my obsession with them was a temporary sickness, that resulted from it being my only coping mechanism I developed for dealing with a really painful thing in my life (an abusive long-term relationship that took place for even longer than that 10 year period). After my ex and I split is when I did the ibogaine, and afterwards, addiction-free, I abstained from drugs for a while and I began working to improve my life. I started working out and eating well, and I filled my time with things I am passionate about (playing music mostly, also spending a lot of time with my friends). I can say with certainty now that I am no longer an opiate addict. I still have a personality type that is prone to addiction, so I always maintain a close watch on myself when it comes to drugs. These days I smoke weed pretty regularly, and drink pretty regularly too, and I take psychedelics as appropriate for me, but I stay sober most of the time and I maintain my passions as my primary focus in life. I think that staying in the mindset of "I'm an addict" is a fearful way to live, and it makes your problem a primary focus of your everyday life. Because of this, it makes it very difficult to put any distance between your past and present. I realize NA/AA helps some people and is the only thing that's worked for them, and that's great, but I think we all have the power to be whatever we want, as long as we put in the work to be that way. For me, drugs still enhance my life, when used the way I use them, and I don't think having an addiction to something necessitates removing all drugs completely, for all people.

As for spirituality, that's your path and it can develop in any way you develop it. :) For me, my spiritual path began with my first psychedelic trip, which totally changed my frame of view on life and the universe. So I use psychedelics periodically to help keep me on that path or just for fun, and I just try to live being present in the moment. I try to notice the beauty in those moments, and I try to surround myself with like-minded people, and do things with my time that mean something to me. As a result, most things in life usually make sense to me, and I live most of my time being happy and content.
 
okay - let me say that i loathe AA/NA and consider it a miserable existence....just so you are warned. the powerless bit is BS. you can cure your addiction with a bottle of robotussin, if you're willing to actually meet your god, rather than just torturing yourself with the idea. be warned, you don't get to choose your gods. if you want, i'll supply you with the scientific journal articles supporting this. dxm, in cough syrup, will cure most addictions, including nicotine and morphine. cure - not treat with god/denial, as in the AA plan.

now, read this - how dopamine killed the dinosaurs.

btw, buddhism is an anti-theistic religion. the buddha acknowledged the existence of higher powers, but said that they should not be worshiped, that such was their addiction.

if you're still with me, ask away....
 
Tantric, what would happen to you if you did not take DXM everyday?
 
i become very boring. i'm much less willing to interact with other people. i easily get overstimulated - like i hate having a TV going in the room. like as not, i'll lock myself away somewhere quit. very unlikely i'll maintain a job.
 
I guess I'm trying to see how daily dxm use is not an addiction.

Does it make you nauseated? Dxm makes me violently ill, but that's syrup.

Interesting re: over stimulation. I often get that, where I need to reduce all stimulus, control my environment or I get anxious. Meditating helps but I feel like my brain is fucked at these times.
 
Interesting this is brought up, as I had somewhat of a love affair with DXM. I used it quite often recreationally, but was informed by my psychologist that I was being prescribed Sertraline and I would have to quit. I wish I could say that I enjoy the antidepressant more than the DXM. :(. Fatal combo btw, you can find stuff online about how you shouldn't take it with MAOIs. Oops not on topic, my bad.

But as for my input. If it is spirituality you seek, it's more than likely a lifestyle change. But not in a bad way. Regular meditation, psychedelics on occasion to perpetuate curiosity and inspire chasing the divine or unknown. Agreeing with Xorkoth on everything here. I'd just take the program and cut the bullshit down to bare bones living content with your job and home, and always seeking that you haven't explored. Just exploring with drugs and meditation, urging yourself to feel spiritual and get back that headspace is often good enough go obtain a high level of spirituality. If you want to feel the same as the monks who devoted there lives to trying to justiy the spiritual aspect of buddhism, maybe take a bit and copy them. You'll be on the right path. ;)
 
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addiction: the state of being enslaved to a habit or practice or to something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming, as narcotics, to such an extent that its cessation causes severe trauma.

fairly often, i'm just too lazy to go get my dxm and i come off it and feel bad for a while. just regular bad, not withdrawal. i also take insulin every day. if i stop that, it's katty barred the door - i can't freaking move. which am i addicted to? if you jack off every day, are you a wank addict?
 
addiction is a specific neurochemical process. it exists because of evolution. this is being clinical, true, but what else are we here for? you are not addicted to Game of Thrones, snickerdoodles, masturbation, etc. a thing you do everyday is a *ritual*. if you feel compelled to do it, we call that OCD. yeah, it's related to neurochemical addiction, but not the same. real neurochemical addictions are transferable - from junk food to cigarettes to speed to lottery tickets, because its all about dopamine.
 
It's not really good HR advice to recommend "curing" one drug addiction by starting another. NMDA antagonists have their own set of variables and issues.
 
It's not really good HR advice to recommend "curing" one drug addiction by starting another. NMDA antagonists have their own set of variables and issues.

it's a one dose thing. one bottle of robo. to cure an addiction to morphine or heroin. it's an OVER THE COUNTER drug. your alternative is a life time of johnsing, never ending cravings. being unable to take pain meds for an injury because you 'can't trust yourself'. endless narcassitic drama. that idiot powerless victim shit......ie, the drug continues to rule your life, but you don't get to get high. it is VERY good HR advice, and i can show you the scientific references. i''ve done it already several times on this site, it doesn't matter. i'm not a doctor - you have surrendered control of your life to doctors, and you will not grant me that magic, all scientific data aside. blah.
 
I used a drug (ibogaine) to get off opiates, but I only used it once. I am wary of using a drug every day. To me that's no different from going on an antidepressant to fix something. yeah it's probably better than the alternative, but true freedom is getting to a good place on your own. In my opinion. :)
 
it's a one dose thing. one bottle of robo. to cure an addiction to morphine or heroin. it's an OVER THE COUNTER drug. your alternative is a life time of johnsing, never ending cravings. being unable to take pain meds for an injury because you 'can't trust yourself'. endless narcassitic drama. that idiot powerless victim shit......ie, the drug continues to rule your life, but you don't get to get high. it is VERY good HR advice, and i can show you the scientific references. i''ve done it already several times on this site, it doesn't matter. i'm not a doctor - you have surrendered control of your life to doctors, and you will not grant me that magic, all scientific data aside. blah.

It's not about doctors and science vs. intuition, etc but I would like to learn more... can you link to anything about DXM and opiate addiction? Doesn't even have to be journals.

I used ketamine to break severe depression, there's a whole thread on it somewhere, so I'm not a blind skeptic.
 

The article postulates that only directly dopaminergic drugs/activites are addictive, yeah? This actually means pretty much anything can be addictive. I could be totally wrong but I think dopamine is released whenever we perform some kind of rewarding or pleasurable activity, or is released to inspire us towards that activity. DXM may not directly release dopamine, but given that you have determined its importance in creating a certain quality life for you, it is most likely released without the need for an exogenous catalyst. Anything that you asses and learn to be pleasurable can be reinforced by the reward chemical. DXM may not be traditionally addictive and may not have a structure we associate with dopamine release, but if it becomes a learned, pleasurable/beneficial activity, dopamine is playing a role in your choice. If DXM is attentuating depression, there has to be some way for the brain to inspire you to continue with it and I believe your brain is releasing dopamine without the help from endogenous dopaminergic agents.

. If I understand what dopamine is doing, there is very little which will be rewarding without a dopaminergic component. I love reading; it is one of my lifes greatest pleasures. When I have nothing to read, I don't get cravings of start scraping my bookshelves for possible text I have misplaced, but I do feel a certain sense of loss that is reduced when I do find something to read.. When I have nothing to read, I find myself wanting it and find myself missing it and I feel the desire to find something. I suspect that this pleasurable activity for me has an indirect but significant connection to dopamine for me.

Clearly, I'm not a neuroscientist or biologist but I feel like this idea may have some merit.
 
This actually means pretty much anything can be addictive.

If you think about it, then it's not far from the truth as far as I can see. In simple terms, if something is deemed pleasurable by the individual, they are going to try to repeat it. Whether it's drugs (need not be dopaminergic), sex, food, or even benign activities such as exercise, hiking and so on. It's only a matter of finding what the biochemical basis for that is, and, again in simplified terms, it could be related to the dopaminergic system. Again, it need not be directly associated with it (a la dopaminergic drugs like amphetamines), it can be indirect too.

Another thing I have noticed, about myself at least, is that drugs are successful at replacing other activities. I started taking psychoactives (except coffee) by the time I was about 20, so you could say that at that time I was an adult who hadn't yet dipped into the world of drugs. So I had other things to occupy myself with and I enjoyed them. After I discovered drugs, joy from those activities started to fade. It's like they weren't as fun without drugs, or taking drugs to have a good time was just an easier option. I know I'm probably more of an exception, but I really lost any kind of interest in practically everything by now. The only things I genuinely like and still enjoy is doing research and reading about biochemistry, and getting high. But even my research and reading is connected to drugs. Sort of sad, when I think about it this way.

E: my point in the last paragraph being that it's not unreasonable to think that pleasurable activities exert their "pleasure" through same/similar mechanisms and/or pathways as drugs do.
 
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These are the abstracts from a bunch of papers. Hint 'Google Scholar'. Sign up with JSTOR or go to https://sci-hub.io/

The treatment of heroin addicts with dextromethorphan: a double-blind comparison of dextromethorphan with chlorpromazine
Abstract: According to the hypothesis that the development of physical dependence on and tolerance to opiates depends on the inhibition by opiates of L-asparaginase and L-glutaminase activities in the brain, and the blockade by opiates of the aspartatergic/glutamatergic receptors especially NMDA, four female and fourty-four male heroin addicts were included in a double-blind clinical trial. Four mg chlorpromazine (CPZ) was administered every hour and 10 mg diazepam (DIA) every 6 hours to a group consisting of two female and nineteen male inpatients. The remaining subjects received 15 mg non-opioid antitussive dextromethorphan (DM) instead of CPZ. The withdrawn addicts were controlled twice a day and yawning, lacrimation, rhinorrhoea, perspiration, goose flesh, muscle tremor, dilated pupils, anorexia, joint and muscle aches, restlessness, insomnia, emesis, diarrhea, craving and rejection of smoking as abstinence syndrome signs were observed and rated on a scale of 1, 2 and 3 points according to their intensity. All signs, except perspiration and emesis, were significantly less intense in the group given DM + DIA than CPZ + DIA. The other plus points included the immediate stop of craving and the early onset of smoking in DM + DIA group. The results are considered to be supporting evidence for the hypothesis emphasizing the blockade of NMDA receptors by opiates in opiate addiction. Furthermore, the decrease caused by non-opioid NMDA antagonists in the responsiveness of NMDA receptors appears very promising for the treatment of opiate addicts.


The combination of tizanidine markedly improves the treatment with dextromethorphan of heroin addicted outpatients.
Abstract: According to the hypothesis implying that the main mechanism underlying opiate addiction is the blockade by opiates of NMDA receptor functions and subsequent upregulation and supersensitivity of the receptors, noncompetitive NMDA receptor blocker dextromethorphan (DM) has been successfully used in the heroin addict treatment. As the stimulation of NMDA receptors modulates the release of neurotransmitters and hormones such as NE, D, ACh, GH, LH, LSH, ACTH etc., all of which have been found responsible for the manifestation of abstinence syndrome signs including craving and neuronal death by excessive stimulation of NMDA receptors, the incomplete blockade of the NMDA receptors minimizes the intensity of the abstinence syndrome and provides the downregulation of the receptors. In the present study, tizanidine (TIZ), which inhibits the release of endogenous excitatory aminoacids by the agonistic activity on alpha 2-adrenoreceptors, was combined with DM to obtain further benefits. Forty-four male and three female heroin addicts were the subjects of the study. Their daily mean heroin intake was about 2.28 g street heroin. The main duration of heroin use was approximately 3.4 years. Two to three hours after abrupt withdrawal, the outpatients were given 15 mg DM every hour, 25 or 50 mg chlorpromazine (CPZ) + 4 mg TIZ every six hours and 10 mg diazepam + 10 mg hyoscine N-butyl Br + 250 mg dipyrone every six hours three hours following CPZ. The addicts were controlled twice a day. Yawning, rhinorrhea, perspiration, piloerection, restlessness, insomnia, emesis, diarrhea, craving, rejection of smoking and pupils were observed and/or questioned. Two of the 47 outpatients took heroin on the first days.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

Oral administration of dextromethorphan prevents the development of morphine tolerance and dependence in rats
Abstract: Combined oral administration of morphine sulfate (MS) and the over-the-counter antitussive drug and N-methyl-d-aspartate receptor antagonist dextromethorphan (DM) prevented the development of tolerance to the antinociceptive effects of MS (15, 24, or 32 mg/kg) in rats. This combined oral treatment regimen also attenuated signs of naloxone-precipitated physical dependence on morphine in the same rats. A wide range of ratios of MS to DM (2:1, 1:1, and 1:2) were effective for preventing the development of morphine tolerance and dependence. In addition, we provide evidence that under certain circumstances DM increases the acute antinociceptive effects of MS. All of these results indicate that oral treatment that combines DM with opiate analgesics may be a powerful approach for simultaneously preventing opiate tolerance and dependence and enhancing analgesia in humans.

Continuous co-administration of dextromethorphan or MK-801 with morphine: attenuation of morphine dependence and naloxone-reversible attenuation of morphine tolerance
Abstract: N-Methyl- d-aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonists have been repeatedly shown to attenuate the development of opiate tolerance and dependence in rodents. In the present experiments, continuous subcutaneous infusion of either MK-801 (0.01 mg/kg/h but not 0.005 mg/kg/h) or DM (0.133, 0.67 and 1.33 mg/kg/h) reliably prolonged the antinociceptive effect of continuous subcutaneous infusion of morphine sulfate (2.0 mg/kg/h), indicating attenuation of the development of morphine tolerance. Furthermore, this prolonged antinociception was completely reversible by naloxone (10 mg/kg, i.p.). Doses of MK-801 and DM that were equipotent in attenuating morphine tolerance (0.01 mg/kg/h and 1.33 mg/kg/h, respectively) revealed different profiles of effects, however, on locomotor activity and naloxone-precipitated abstinence/withdrawal symptoms. With regard to locomotor activity, rats having received continuous (48 h) subcutaneous infusion of morphine sulfate and MK-801, but not rats having received morphine sulfate and DM, displayed a reliable and striking increase in locomotor activity as compared with rats having received morphine alone. With regard to naloxone-precipitated withdrawal symptoms, continuous (48 h) subcutaneous co-infusion of either MK-801 (0.01 mg/kg/h) or DM (1.33 mg/kg/h) with morphine attenuated naloxone-precipitated hyperalgesia as compared with rats infused with morphine alone. MK-801 (0.01 mg/kg/h) was more effective than DM (0.133, 0.67, or 1.33 mg/kg/h), however, in reducing other naloxone-precipitated withdrawal symptoms (teeth chattering, jumping and wet dog shakes). The effects of MK-801 on all withdrawal symptoms were confounded, however, by the appearance of flaccidity following naloxone administration to rats having received MK-801 and morphine. These results extend previous observations by showing that the prolonged antinociception observed following co-administration of morphine and an NMDA antagonist is completely naloxone-reversible, supporting the notion that this antinociception reflects prolongation of an opioid receptor-mediated effect. The different profiles of side effects associated with MK-801 and DM, however, suggest that (1) attenuation of naloxone-precipitated withdrawal symptoms by MK-801 may be an artifact of toxicity, and (2) DM may prove clinically useful for the prevention of morphine tolerance, given its lack of observable side effects when administered concurrently with morphine to rodents.

Dextromethorphan attenuates and reverses analgesic tolerance to morphine
Abstract: Tolerance to the antinociceptive (analgesic) effect of morphine, a mu-opioid agonist, was developed in male CD-1 mice as assessed by a shift to the right of the analgesic (tail-flick) dose-response curves and an increase in the ED50 values. Administration of dextromethorphan at 30 mg/kg s.c., but not saline, 30 min prior to an escalating 3 times per day (t.i.d.) morphine dosing schedule prevented a 5-fold increase in the morphine ED50 value observed on treatment day 4. Concurrent administration of dextromethorphan at 12 mg/kg/24 h by s.c. infusion prevented the 6-fold increase in the morphine ED50 value that was observed in control mice that received morphine at 30 mg/kg/24 h by s.c. infusion. Implantation of two 25 mg morphine pellets resulted in a 10-fold increase in the morphine ED50 value on treatment day 4. Administration of dextromethorphan at 30 mg/kg s.c. t.i.d., but not saline, resulted in a reversal of morphine tolerance with the almost complete return of the morphine ED50 value to the control (opioid naive) value. These results demonstrate that dextromethorphan, an NMDA receptor antagonist can modulate morphine (mu-receptor)-mediated tolerance.


Dextromethorphan as a potential rapid-acting antidepressant

Abstract: Dextromethorphan shares pharmacological properties in common with antidepressants and, in particular, ketamine, a drug with demonstrated rapid-acting antidepressant activity. Pharmacodynamic similarities include actions on NMDA, μ opiate, sigma-1, calcium channel, serotonin transporter, and muscarinic sites. Additional unique properties potentially contributory to an antidepressant effect include actions at ß, alpha-2, and serotonin1b/d receptors. It is therefore, hypothesized that dextromethorphan may have antidepressant efficacy in bipolar, unipolar, major depression, psychotic, and treatment-resistant depressive disorders, and may display rapid-onset of antidepressant response. An antidepressant response may be associated with a positive family history of alcoholism, prediction of ketamine response, increased AMPA–to–NMDA receptor activity ratio, antidepressant properties in animal models of depression, reward system activation, enhanced erythrocyte magnesium concentration, and correlation with frontal μ receptor binding potential. Clinical trials of dextromethorphan in depressive disorders, especially treatment-resistant depression, now seem warranted.


An extension of hypotheses regarding rapid-acting, treatment-refractory, and conventional antidepressant activity of dextromethorphan and dextrorphan
Abstract: It was previously hypothesized that dextromethorphan (DM) and dextrorphan (DX) may possess antidepressant properties, including rapid and conventional onsets of action and utility in treatment-refractory depression, based on pharmacodynamic similarities to ketamine. These similarities included sigma-1 (σ1) agonist and NMDA antagonist properties, calcium channel blockade, muscarinic binding, serotonin transporter (5HTT) inhibition, and μ receptor potentiation. Here, six specific hypotheses are developed in light of additional mechanisms and evidence. Comparable potencies to ketamine for DM and DX are detailed for σ1 (DX > DM > ketamine), NMDA PCP site (DX > ketamine > DM), and muscarinic (DX > ketamine >>>> DM) receptors, 5HTT (DM > DX ≫ ketamine), and NMDA antagonist potentiation of μ receptor stimulation (DM > ketamine). Rapid acting antidepressant properties of DM include NMDA high-affinity site, NMDR-2A, and functional NMDR-2B receptor antagonism, σ1 stimulation, putative mTOR activation (by σ1 stimulation, μ potentiation, and 5HTT inhibition), putative AMPA receptor trafficking (by mTOR activation, PCP antagonism, σ1 stimulation, μ potentiation, and 5HTT inhibition), and dendritogenesis, spinogenesis, synaptogenesis, and neuronal survival by NMDA antagonism and σ1 and mTOR signaling. Those for dextrorphan include NMDA high-affinity site and NMDR-2A antagonism, σ1 stimulation, putative mTOR activation (by σ1 stimulation and ß adrenoreceptor stimulation), putative AMPA receptor trafficking (by mTOR activation, PCP antagonism, σ1 stimulation, ß stimulation, and μ antagonism), and dendritogenesis, spinogenesis, synaptogenesis, and neuronal survival by NMDA antagonism and σ1 and mTOR signaling. Conventional antidepressant properties for dextromethorphan and dextrorphan include 5HTT and norepinephrine transporter inhibition, σ1 stimulation, NMDA and PCP antagonism, and possible serotonin 5HT1b/d receptor stimulation. Additional properties for dextromethorphan include possible presynaptic α2 adrenoreceptor antagonism or postsynaptic α2 stimulation and, for dextrorphan, ß stimulation and possible muscarinic and μ antagonism. Treatment-refractory depression properties include increased serotonin and norepinephrine availability, PCP, NMDR-2B, presynaptic alpha-2 antagonism, and the multiplicity of other antidepressant receptor mechanisms. Suggestions for clinical trials are provided for oral high-dose dextromethorphan and Nuedexta (dextromethorphan combined with quinidine to block metabolism to dextrorphan, thereby increasing dextromethorphan plasma concentrations). Suggestions include exclusionary criteria, oral dosing, observation periods, dose–response approaches, and safety and tolerability are considered. Although oral dextromethorphan may be somewhat more likely to show efficacy through complementary antidepressant mechanisms of dextrorphan, a clinical trial will be more logistically complex than one of Nuedexta due to high doses and plasma level variability. Clinical trials may increase our therapeutic armamentarium and our pharmacological understanding of treatment-refractory depression and antidepressant onset of action.
 
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