Heroin How much subs do I need? - first time quitting

[Synaps3]

So this is my first time quitting opioids. I've been using opioids for about 5 years now daily - never used them in the past before this. It started with kratom, went up to 20g per day, then went on to hydromorphone pills (which I used for about 1 solid year) instead of the kratom (and I was using 1.5 x 8mg pill per day nasal). Then about 6 months ago I could no longer get real hydromorphone pills. All of them were becoming pressed fakes and I didn't want to use fent. It's such a shame because the hydromorphone never created much of a tolerance for me. It was clear that I could use it sustainably for a lifetime cause my tolerance was no longer going up. When I couldn't get more, I switched to nasal #4 H - real H by the way - 90% pure stuff. Well, now I realize that I have to quit cause unlike the hymo, my tolerance keeps going up and up. It began 6 months ago at 30mg per day nasal - which seemed to be roughly equal to 12mg of nasal hymo per day. Now I'm taking 200mg of nasal H per day. This has to stop because in the morning my heart is racing like at 150 bpm. I have to plow down a whole point (100mg) just to make my heart slow down and it takes a while for some reason. It's not like as soon as the effects kick in; instead I have to wait a couple hours to start mellowing out.

So anyways, I've never quit opioids before. I know I need to get suboxone or subutex. I really would like the subutex because I'm afraid the noloxone will send me into precipitated withdrawals (which might be too much for my body to handle at the moment (im going through an extremely stressful time in my life right now)). Do you think I would get precipitated withdrawals by using normal suboxone given my current situation?

Lastly, but most importantly, how much buprenorphine should I take per day to not withdrawal from 200mg of nasal H per day? Understand that I'm not looking to actually go through withdrawal at the moment (I have very important people to potentially meet and I need to be normal). I just want a dose that will make me feel normal so I can function just fine, but not feel messed up or high.

PS: Someone needs to start making street hydromorphone powder. It is a very sustainable substance given my experience. If I was never forced to switch off of that, this would never have happened. I can tell there is something inherent to the diamorphine molecule that makes it gain infinite tolerance. It's a shitty design. Also given that all is needed is recyclable palladium catalyst, it makes total sense from a cost/benefit analysis as well.

Thank you so much.
Have a blessed day

 

[Jabberwocky]

I really would like the subutex because I'm afraid the noloxone will send me into precipitated withdrawals (which might be too much for my body to handle at the moment (im going through an extremely stressful time in my life right now)). Do you think I would get precipitated withdrawals by using normal suboxone given my current situation?

It's not the naloxone that causes precipitated withdrawals from suboxone, it's bupe itself. Naloxone only has a half life of about 2 hours, buprenorphine is 30+ hours. Buprenorphine also has an insanely high affinity, and boots other opioids off the receptor in the same manner that naloxone does.

That initial dose hurts the most, but when people talk about precip withdrawals, it's from bupe not naloxone.

The naloxone in suboxone is mainly to deter IV use.

Lastly, but most importantly, how much buprenorphine should I take per day to not withdrawal from 200mg of nasal H per day? Understand that I'm not looking to actually go through withdrawal at the moment (I have very important people to potentially meet and I need to be normal). I just want a dose that will make me feel normal so I can function just fine, but not feel messed up or high.

I would probably start with 8-12mg and go from there. You may need more or less. It often takes a week or so to get dialed into to the correct dose. Too much can be unpleasant, you feel like mild opioid overdose symptoms for 24 hours. Too little and you will feel in withdrawal.

 

[ghostandthedarkness]

yep 8 to 12 daily. for me less is better so I'd try 8 doing 4 in the morning and 4 at night. just enough to hold you.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I’ve never used H, but I relapsed at one point and was using the pressed 8s.. otherwise know as shady 8s. (IV use).

Obviously my tolerance sky rocketed and it was miserable. Before that relapse I had been on 16mg of suboxone .. but I was still very unwell even with the 16. So I was put up to 24mg.

I’ve never experienced precipitated withdrawal either. I waited 24 hours after my last use and started with 4mg. Then increased by another 4mg later that day.
The next day I took 8+8 in the same way.
Day after, I took the full 24, if I’m remembering correctly.

It wasn’t fun. But it was definitely worth it.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Obviously my tolerance sky rocketed and it was miserable. Before that relapse I had been on 16mg of suboxone .. but I was still very unwell even with the 16. So I was put up to 24mg.

that's the fucked up thing about fentanyl, suboxone doesn't really cover it. Suboxone for fentanyl is like 3-4 days of precip withdrawals. The detoxes have a hard time controlling the symptoms, maybe because they don't give out methadone anymore.

I've seen dudes in detox have a literal seizure after being given 16mg of subs for a fentanyl habit.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The 24 hours were awful. But it was planned on my part.

So I had “comfort meds” ready

Clonidine
Diazepam
Loperomide(?)

Lots of water. I couldn’t keep anything inside my body. Throwing up and shitting yourself at the same time isn’t fun.

Not being a slave to fent pills, makes the Suboxone worth it for me.

I know not everyone feels like that towards them. But at least I don’t have to worry about overdosing on street fent. Pros and cons to everything eh?

I wish you the very best of luck. You’ll be glad you made this decision. Please keep us updated?

 

[Jabberwocky]

that's the fucked up thing about fentanyl, suboxone doesn't really cover it. Suboxone for fentanyl is like 3-4 days of precip withdrawals. The detoxes have a hard time controlling the symptoms, maybe because they don't give out methadone anymore.

I've seen dudes in detox have a literal seizure after being given 16mg of subs for a fentanyl habit.

I never went to detox before either. Only an outpatient one. Although I wouldn’t recommend this, for the exact reason you mentioned…. Even detox centers have a difficult time helping when it comes to fent use.

Maybe I was in precip. It was a very foggy horrible time for me.. as I was doing it on my own (I had my own prescribed stash). Those memories seem very far away. My head was fucked for a good while after that particular relapse. The relapse wasn’t particularly long either. Each one has been worse, and much more difficult to get regulated again.

But I got through and haven’t been back to that side ever since.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Just to clarify, I was prescribed the 16, then the 24mg after the relapse. But due to being unable to go see my doctor in person because I was in such bad shape, he called it into my pharmacy (which is less than 1km away from my house).
He helped me out BIG TIME.
Along with giving me some extra comfort meds.

Get some pregabalin if you can!!

 

[Jabberwocky]

So this is my first time quitting opioids. I've been using opioids for about 5 years now daily - never used them in the past before this. It started with kratom, went up to 20g per day, then went on to hydromorphone pills (which I used for about 1 solid year) instead of the kratom (and I was using 1.5 x 8mg pill per day nasal). Then about 6 months ago I could no longer get real hydromorphone pills. All of them were becoming pressed fakes and I didn't want to use fent. It's such a shame because the hydromorphone never created much of a tolerance for me. It was clear that I could use it sustainably for a lifetime cause my tolerance was no longer going up. When I couldn't get more, I switched to nasal #4 H - real H by the way - 90% pure stuff. Well, now I realize that I have to quit cause unlike the hymo, my tolerance keeps going up and up. It began 6 months ago at 30mg per day nasal - which seemed to be roughly equal to 12mg of nasal hymo per day. Now I'm taking 200mg of nasal H per day. This has to stop because in the morning my heart is racing like at 150 bpm. I have to plow down a whole point (100mg) just to make my heart slow down and it takes a while for some reason. It's not like as soon as the effects kick in; instead I have to wait a couple hours to start mellowing out.

So anyways, I've never quit opioids before. I know I need to get suboxone or subutex. I really would like the subutex because I'm afraid the noloxone will send me into precipitated withdrawals (which might be too much for my body to handle at the moment (im going through an extremely stressful time in my life right now)). Do you think I would get precipitated withdrawals by using normal suboxone given my current situation?

Lastly, but most importantly, how much buprenorphine should I take per day to not withdrawal from 200mg of nasal H per day? Understand that I'm not looking to actually go through withdrawal at the moment (I have very important people to potentially meet and I need to be normal). I just want a dose that will make me feel normal so I can function just fine, but not feel messed up or high.

PS: Someone needs to start making street hydromorphone powder. It is a very sustainable substance given my experience. If I was never forced to switch off of that, this would never have happened. I can tell there is something inherent to the diamorphine molecule that makes it gain infinite tolerance. It's a shitty design. Also given that all is needed is recyclable palladium catalyst, it makes total sense from a cost/benefit analysis as well.

Thank you so much.
Have a blessed day

There’s no magical fix, in terms of switching from h to subs. It’s a bit of a process. However, I have a feeling the worst of it could be done within a 3-4 day period.

Suboxone does not make you feel high, at all. It simply makes you feel “normal” or “not sick”. It helps keep those cravings away too.

As Snafu mentioned, it’s the bupe itself that causes the precipitated withdrawals… and naloxone is there to make it tamper proof.

I don’t know how long you would have to wait to make that chance go down, but my best guess/research/what I’ve been told, is about 24 hours. Everyone is different. But that’s the best timeline I’d suggest.

Since you’re not using fent anymore, you have a lower chance of bad precips.

But as I mentioned, after roughly 3 days of feeling like pure shit, you will start to feel better and you could likely carry on with your life. You won’t feel great by any stretch, but it’s something that could be passed off as a really bad flu to those that are none the wiser.

 

[Northerngyal]

It's not the naloxone that causes precipitated withdrawals from suboxone, it's bupe itself. Naloxone only has a half life of about 2 hours, buprenorphine is 30+ hours. Buprenorphine also has an insanely high affinity, and boots other opioids off the receptor in the same manner that naloxone does.

That initial dose hurts the most, but when people talk about precip withdrawals, it's from bupe not naloxone.

The naloxone in suboxone is mainly to deter IV use.


I would probably start with 8-12mg and go from there. You may need more or less. It often takes a week or so to get dialed into to the correct dose. Too much can be unpleasant, you feel like mild opioid overdose symptoms for 24 hours. Too little and you will feel in withdrawal.

That’s really good to know. I had no idea that it was the bupe that caused the precipitated withdrawals. I always assumed it was the naloxone. I guess its good not to just assume shit lol.

 

[Synaps3]

Hi, I'm back with some questions and a bit of a problem:

So I have 2 options: I have a lot of dipanyone (which is a 1/3rd potency methadone analog for those who don't know). I was wondering if I should just try to use the dipanyone to taper instead of getting subs?

I've never gotten subs before. How long does it typically take to obtain from a clinic in the US?

Right now, I still have some (like 10) hydromorphone pills left and so I decided to jump off the H and on to these pills for a bit to just bring down my tolerance before I do the subs or the dipyanone.

What's going on now is super annoying and I'm a little worried. I don't actually feel very withdrawn given that I'm taking the hymo pills, but there is just one thing that is very disturbing: I can't sleep at all. I keep getting constant hypnic jerks every time my body is about to fall asleep, I jerk awake. They are very small jerks, but are enough to wake me back up as soon as I'm about to sleep. I don't expect to be having this given that the withdrawal is super mild and I can tell that I could sleep perfectly fine if only not for the jerks.

 

[thurston]

I usually take benzos for sleep the first few nights. Absolutely do not take Benadryl it can cause horrible restless limbs.

 

[kongoman]

IF you want to go with dipanyone( its dipipanone or dypianone) you can go whenever you want with no WD.
If you want to go with subs you have to wait at least 8h from your last H dose and begin with 2mg, wait 1-2hours then add 2mg wait 1-2hours, until you find the right dose. Thats the way Drs induct to Subox from H in Spain. IMPORTANT! Be sure its not fent cause youll gonna precipated WDs

 

[smokeymcpot42088]

^ I would up that to 24 hours from your last H dose, or as close to 24 hours as you can make it. Check out the chart on COWS (I think) ... if so it will tell you based on what w/d symptoms when it is alright to take suboxone.....If not just make it until you "Know" you are sick...

If you use a full agonist like methadone or dipanyone you don't have to worry about when your last dose was; as long as you don't O.D.

If you have access to dipipanone and it 'cures' your w/d I don't see it as any more of an evil than Sub; perhaps less evil due to subs half life being so damn long you end up dopesick for a full month or over.... As someone on bupe I wouldn't redflag myself like I did if I had access to any full agonist. I guess why would you go on bupe if you have access to enough dypianone (or w/e) to taper.

I was able to get into a sub doctor within 48 hours of calling initially. No more than 7 days. Id call all the doctors in your town or w/e and whoever answers first / you can afford / tolerates policies...... Really though your just wasting your money and redflagging yourself if you have or can procure enough to taper.

 

[kongoman]

^ I would up that to 24 hours from your last H dose, or as close to 24 hours as you can make it. Check out the chart on COWS (I think) ... if so it will tell you based on what w/d symptoms when it is alright to take suboxone.....If not just make it until you "Know" you are sick...

If you use a full agonist like methadone or dipanyone you don't have to worry about when your last dose was; as long as you don't O.D.

If you have access to dipipanone and it 'cures' your w/d I don't see it as any more of an evil than Sub; perhaps less evil due to subs half life being so damn long you end up dopesick for a full month or over.... As someone on bupe I wouldn't redflag myself like I did if I had access to any full agonist. I guess why would you go on bupe if you have access to enough dypianone (or w/e) to taper.

I was able to get into a sub doctor within 48 hours of calling initially. No more than 7 days. Id call all the doctors in your town or w/e and whoever answers first / you can afford / tolerates policies...... Really though your just wasting your money and redflagging yourself if you have or can procure enough to taper.

If its real H its enough with 8hours, you could 12h. But yes, best thing is to wait the first WD symptoms

 

[smokeymcpot42088]

That is exactly what I meant 'heroin' has became a vague notion of what was once diacetyl morphine.... If heroin was still the active ingredient in "heroin" I never woulda went to bupe.

 

[Synaps3]

That is exactly what I meant 'heroin' has became a vague notion of what was once diacetyl morphine.... If heroin was still the active ingredient in "heroin" I never woulda went to bupe.

Mine was completely real, so you think bupe is not worth it for coming off real H?

 

[kongoman]

That is exactly what I meant 'heroin' has became a vague notion of what was once diacetyl morphine.... If heroin was still the active ingredient in "heroin" I never woulda went to bupe.

Why?

 

[smokeymcpot42088]

Oh shit I wasn't expecting a thinker...... umm ... somebody extrapolate on my crude metaphor..

It depends; would you rather suffer intensely for 4-7 days or 'less' intensely for a month. Best way I can think of to word it.

Now bupe is way overscripted in the US, you will likely find yourself with 56 8 mg pills. For a long time bupe dosage was used for pain at amounts around .25 mg (anyone old enough to recall?) in Europe.... Where I am going with this is if you CAN AFFORD BUPE you will likely have alot more than you need; which you could save up and end up with a pretty nice amount to taper after a few months......

If you can afford a full mu agonist in an amount that you could taper comfortably; I don't see why that wouldn't be preferable. Heroin is tough, that dipapione or w/e; how long is the halflife? And again longer halflife longer w/ds but less intense.

 

[smokeymcpot42088]

Why?

I don't want to die.

The fent epidemic. Can't get dope without fent or and xylazine in my part of the world. Not playing russian roulette every 6 - 8 hours, which was turning into more like 3 hours cuz of said fent....fent strips every batch comes back positive, plus these new nitrines or w/e category cyclomorphine (sp) would fall under..... It is a death sentence man. Same day as I took 4 mg of sub I took half a 10 bag and required treatment.