Misc How much melatonin for booze/pot dependent individual to sleep

[dankplantgrower]

Sorry for the noob thread ladies and gentlemen but the search function was useless. Im not going to spend hours sifting through amphetamines and nudie threads to maybe find what Im looking for.

Anyways Ive always had sleeping issues, even before I ever started using booze or pot, was a kid just staring at the ceiling and listening to Loveline until 2 or so. So naturally when I realized how good pot and booze are for inducing sleep, I started to rely on them for sleep. Without weed or alcohol, Ill lay awake until 4 o clock, just wishing for sleep.

Fast forward over 10 years, and tonight is the first night in yeeears that I havent at least had booze or weed to knock me out. Which wouldnt be that bad, but Im starting a new job tomorrow morning. My sunken pothead eyes (even sober) plus sleep deprivation, and Ill be looking like a double druggie on my first day. I had enough money for a half pint of vodka but my kidneys are starting to trouble me (severe alcoholic), so I went to the 99 cent store and got a bottle of melatonin and a bottle of diphenhydramine instead (cheap!).

Now, I really dont like DPH for sleep unless I really need it. Even just the baseline dose irritates my RLS pretty bad, which is sorta torturous, you dont know until youve experienced it. Plus I usually wake up a couple hours after DPH sleep feeling alert, sometimes unable to sleep again without another dose. Ive never taken melatonin, but I have seen plenty of praise for it online, and Im gonna try tonight. So, the questions...

About how much melatonin would you estimate, to knock out a "sleep tolerant" individual who has sedated himself for sleep the past decade?

Would taking a half dose of DPH and mixing it with Melatonin combine to make a 1-2 punch combo, or could they interact with each other negatively somehow? I really need this sleep.

Any sleep tips from some of you drugophiles who have dealt with similar issues?


Thanks all for reading. DPH is standard 25 mg generic, melatonin is 3mg and also lists Vitamin B6 (as Pyridoxine HCL) as an active ingredient above the melatonin itself. Stay safe BLers.

 

[Morphling]

.5 to 5 mgs melatonin, up to 100 mgs DPH. With the melatonin, less is more, as higher doses can actually keep you awake.

 

[tricomb]

Well first of all, the search engine is not at all useless, use the advanced search function so that you don't have to "sift through amphetamines and nudie threads", and I'm sure you could find a lot of information on this subject.

I think the reason why you might not have found your answer instantly is because it is one that cannot be answered universally, since everyone has a unique body chemistry and everyone will respond better to different forms of treatment, and different approaches of therapy.

It would be helpful to know what you have tried already that has NOT worked for you:
-Your asking about how to knock out a "sleep tolerant" individual who's sedated himself for sleep for the past decade.
...This inherently is extremely relevant and we will need to know what you have been sedating yourself with.
-What sedative(s) worked for you,
-for how long,
-at what doses,
-in combination with what/any other medications (OTC & RX)
-What other things have you done / are you doing for your insomnia, besides medication? (Diet, exercise, meditation, CBT, sleep study, thorough examination of underlying conditions)?


I've suffered extensively with insomnia and would be happy to help once I know what you've already tried.

For example, have you tried hydroxyzine hydrochloride (generic Atarax) instead of diphenhydramine? I've found it to be extremely helpful as an adjunct with my benzodiazepine sleep medication, there's literature to suggest it potentiates/synergizes well with benzodiazepines, and out of all the antihistamines I'm pretty sure that it has the least side effects, particularly the annoying antichollinergic / drying/constipating/unwanted effects that diphenhydramine has.

It's RX-only for some reason in the USA but there's no abuse potential so I don't know why, doctors have always pushed it on me and it seems like on many other people I know, for some reason that and Zolpidem were pushed on me like candy by doctors, but Zolpidem, and ALL Z-Drugs in my opinion, are completely inneffective and are inherently dangerous due to the inhibition loss and drastic change in personality / mood / perception / hallucinations at therapeutic doses, so I hope you've avoided those, drugs like Ambien, Lunesta, Sonata, all that crap, don't touch it with a ten foot pole.

 

[dankplantgrower]

I thought I made it pretty clear that Ive sedated myself with booze and pot for the past decade, it says it in the threadline ; )

BTW thanks for your response morphling, especially the less is more re: melatoning. My first instinct was 6 mg melatonin and 25 mg DPH, so Im glad I got your response first. Im probably goig to go for 3mg melatonin and 25mg DPH and see what happens. Unless mr. Tricomb has a better recommendation for someone in my situation.

Edit: dosage, just in case, as per tricombs post

sedating self with booze and or pot for close to 13 years
usually a mixture of at least a pint of vodka (often 5th) and a bowl of strong flowers
only times Ive ever added an RX into my mix was a brief (4 months?) stint with xanax earlier this year, benzo free for a good 2 months
i dont know how ive dealt with insomnia because this is my first night sober in probably 5 years or more, I literally cant remember the last time I didnt at least have a couple hits of weed or a stiff drink before bed (I probably have less than 7 days without sleep intoxication in the past 13 years)

 

[dankplantgrower]

Ah, I believe the melatonin and lack of DPH tolerance are working together well. Im feeling a slow slide into sleepiness, gonna put on a TV show and hopefully drift out... Impressed as hell with this melatonin, I must say. Many thanks again to morphling and tricomb. I probably would have went 6-9 mg with the melatonin without your words of wisdom and done more harm than good. Much love gentlemen, lock this one up and move her to the trash bin... I cant thank you enough morphling.

 

[sekio]

Melatonin is not a drug you take to "knock you out", nor is it a drug where if "one is good, two must work twice as good".

Take 0.3mg. You don't need to take more. If you take it orally (swallow a pill), wait ~2 hours before lying down. If you take it sublingually (under the tongue), wait 15 minutes. That's more than enough to reduce sleep onset time and increase melatonin levels 10-20 times above baseline. If you take more than 3mg you could run into daytime sleepiness, nausea, confusion, possibly horomonal problems, and further sleep disruption - 3mg is the highest approved dose for this reason.

(ref: http://web.mit.edu/dick/www/pdf/950.pdf)

The diphenhydramine is probably more potent of a sedative than the melatonin is, if you're feeling fuzzy-headed. The first-generation antihistamines work exceedingly well for "knocking you out", like you'd expect, but they lose efficacy for that purpsoe if you use them continuously. Don't expect 25 mg of DPH to make you sleepy very many more times in your life.

For regular usage you probably want to take melatonin rather than DPH, for this reason. Melatonin doesn't lose efficacy at encouraging sleep - but your body starts learning to counteract the sedative action of the diphenhydramine quickly.

 

[manoso]

With the melatonin, less is more, as higher doses can actually keep you awake.

Quoted for truth. Listen to this guy, OP - he knows what he's talking about.

Tolerance to tranquilizers, etc. will not make you tolerant to melatonin. I take 1.5 mg AT MOST to help me sleep - and even then it makes me EXTREMELY, uncomfortably groggy the next day. Half a milligram is the perfect dose.

By the way, melatonin is also a potent antioxidant with a novel mechanism of action and may play a significant role in preventing neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. In fact, it first evolved in aerobic organisms as an antioxidant, as aerobic metabolism generates significant concentrations of free radicals. It didn't become a circadian rhythm/sleep hormone until millions of years later.

 

[Corazon]

I've found that once you take the melatonin, it helps to be in a dark room.

Turn off extra lights and consider wearing a sleep eye mask to bed if your room isn't dark.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

Melatonin is NOT a sleep aid in the way it will not knock you out.
Melatonin is the hormone which tells your body to relax when it is around the time you normally sleep, it's release is influenced heavily on pattern and routine, as well as sunlight, stress etc.
Melatonin is very helpful in readjusting your circadian rhythm in say shift workers who switch between days and nights.
Depending on if your problem is falling asleep of staying asleep, sublingual or time release versions of melatonin are available

 

[brutus]

I've found that once you take the melatonin, it helps to be in a dark room.

Turn off extra lights and consider wearing a sleep eye mask to bed if your room isn't dark.

Exactly. I always take melatonin an hour or so before I want to go to sleep. Then turn off all the lights, including my computer, phone, and tv. I cannot fall asleep with any of the above on while taking melatonin.

Sekio: I often feel really drowsy the next day after taking melatonin. However, I take 3mg pils, so should I start taking just a crumb of a pill to decrease the "hangover?" It's hard to explain how I feel the next day after taking melatonin. Or would the dosage have no effect on how I feel the next day.

 

[tricomb]

Have you tried hydroxyzine? again, it won't stay sedating forever, just like DPH, but it's a damned powerful antihistamine and an underrated one IMO.

 

[ErgicMergic]

I would take 0.25-0.5mg melatonin orally to have sleep nicely, combined with 30mg chelated Zinc, 200mg L-Theanine, and 400mg chelated Mg. I have read that taking more than 1mg is counterproductive, and can keep you up or make you have insane nightmares, so start low. This is a natural sleep hormone, not a "knock your ass out" kind of drug.

Have you tried hydroxyzine? again, it won't stay sedating forever, just like DPH, but it's a damned powerful antihistamine and an underrated one IMO.

Agreed, hydroxyzine fuckin rocks, especially for OCD/ADD-related anxiety due to powerful 5-HT2C antagonist properties. Plus, it's not disgustingly anti-cholinergic like Benadryl or Promethazine; it exerts its sedative actions through non-cholinergic pathways.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

If one isn't supposed to use more than 3mg how come all the pills I found were 3mg or 5mg?
Also the time release ones were only 10mg, and this was across all brands

 

[Psychedelic Jay]

Melatonin is the perfect “just for sleep” drug/hormone and is indeed sedative. This is an effect of melatonin and does increase with dosage.

There is only a ceiling effect to the benefit on circadian rhythm disorders taking it...

It greatly blunts the effects of stimulants.

It has the same side effects as a lot of depressants at super-high doses. (Hypothermia, suppressed blood flow, stupor... etc)

There was research into high doses of melatonin.

It decreases anxiety, stimulation, fever, and free radicals...

I highly recommend this if you are having opiate withdrawals along with any withdrawal regimen you are taking for it.

 

[sekio]

If one isn't supposed to use more than 3mg how come all the pills I found were 3mg or 5mg?

I believe that in the US, melatonin is marketed as a "dietary supplement", which means there are no claims of efficacy at all. In fact, the only things you have to do if you sell a "supplement" is prove that it's not an acute poison, and make sure you comply with current Good Manufacturing Practices - making sure pills contain what they are labeled to, are made uniformly, and don't contain other regulated drugs. (Meaning, if you sell "bitter orange extract" that is just ephedrine, or mislabel your 600 mg Saint John's wort capsules as 100mgs, etc. the FDA can audit you, fine you etc.. basically give you shit. But you are legally in the clear to sell even 100mg melatonin capsules, as long as you didn't make any claims about their efficacy as a medicine - "... not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease" is on the label.)

Because [melatonin] is sold as a dietary supplement, sometimes combined with other ingredients, such as vitamins and herbal extracts, and not as a drug, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) regulations that apply to medications are not applicable to melatonin.

For more reading, FDA's dietary supplement laws are available online.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

If you have real sleep problems, especially related to discontinuing drug use, melatonin isn't going to do anything IMO. You need some stronger. Worth a shot though before you start considering other options.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

I tried it last night, too lazy to split the tablet so I took 3mg, woke up once during the night for maybe ten minutes, that is far better than I ever get for sleep.
Zopiclone, benzos, and seroquel haven't even had me sleeping that good.
Hell even pot usually works better than scripts

 

[Sprout]

I'd be more worried about fatal benzo withdrawal than insomnia.

 

[manoso]

The oral bioavailability of melatonin is very low - around 10-15% I believe. That is why the tablets are sold in 1, 3, and 5 mg strengths when the amount produced by the body during the night is something like 100 micrograms. That is not taking into account any other metabolic factors that affect the melatonin - as previously mentioned, it is a powerful antioxidant and DOES NOT revert to melatonin once it accepts a free-radical, like some other antioxidants do. So, if you have any reactive oxygen species in your body (which you do, because you are an aerobic organism), the melatonin can get "used up" there before it gets to your brain. Taking 1, 3, or even 5 mg will not kill you - though I find that even 1.5 mg is extremely sedating.