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How many innocent people would you kill to save yourself?

bleedingheartcommie said:
^^^^^^^

one completely illogical comeback deserves another


my thoughts exactly.


but anyway.....
will anyone answer my questions?
 
Left to Right:

If I read you right, you suggest there is some problem answering these questions because any answer is dependent on so many factors that are unknown until the time and place when such a situation manifests itself.

However, as I previously pointed out in another post, these problems could just as easily be raised if some one asks you what your favorite color is. Most people can answer this. But if you say "red," there still might be shades of red you don't like. And maybe there are some things you would definitely not want to be red. Like your favorite color for shoes might be black, and you might hate the idea of red shoes. Your favorite color might change during the day as your mood changes, too. Yet for all these problems, the fact is that pretty much all of us have probably been asked, and been able to answer, this question. We do it just be giving a quick, gut-level response at the time we are asked. The answer will be true, but inherently generalized and subject to countless unmentioned qualifications and exceptions. It'll just be what feels MOST accurate at the time we answer. This is all inherent in, and subsumed within, the concept of human communication. All questions, all answers, about reality are inherently vague, incomplete, generalized, subjective and prone to some degree of misunderstanding based on different perceptions of different people as to the nuances of meaning of certain words. Yet we still talk to each other because communication works. It does not work perfectly, but it is the best means we have for sharing information and planning coordinated behaviors.

So just look at each question and say what you feel is most accurate for you.

And the request for a numerical answer does not turn this into an impossible task. While you COULD gives answers like "9" or "40,000" or
"2.134", the more practical issue is whether you value strangers lives as being of greater, equal or lesser value than yours or your loved ones.

This was prompted, in part, by my questioning of my mother, who supported the Iraq war. She claimed it was worth the deaths because Saddam was a bad guy and the world is better without his regime. So I asked her if she thought it would have been worth it if I had to die to get rid of Saddam's regime, and she said no, she would not make that bargain. So on the one hand she thinks 1 death would be too high a price to pay for Saddam's downfall -- my own -- and on the other hand she thinks that the thousands of innocent civilians -- including children -- who died was a fair price. It occured to me that there is a hypocrisy there, and unfairness. I thought of a moral principle: You should not be willing to kill some one's innocent child to achieve some goal if you would not be willing to have your own child die to achieve that same goal. There are countless ways or applying that same moral principle to different situations: You should not be willing to kill an innocent person to achieve some goal unless you are willing to die yourself to achieve that goal. You should not be willing to maim an innocent person to achieve some goal unless you are willing to be maimed yourself to achieve that goal. This is my own realization of what is the fairest and simplest way of figuring out if a particular level of violence is warranted in a particular circumstance.

But it is worth examing how much pro-self, pro-family bias people have and admit to, which is the antithesis of my morality. See, this kind of morality just does not work if most people are willing to kill multiple innocent children in order to save 1 child of their own. If that is the prevailing attitude -- that you should do whatever it takes to save your own child as the highest moral imperative (higher even than not taking the lives of innocent children) then that is worth knowing. Should the moral concept be adjusted to meet this prevailing attitude? Does the prevailing attitude need adjusting?

Consider the long-term effects of a "my child above all else" attitude. This may SEEM superficially to be the best way of protecting your child, your genetic future. However, in a world where strangers all must fear each other, and fear that the other strangers would kill your own child and many others to save their own child, we all have to be on guard. It promotes division and division promotes violence. When you dig deeper, it may become apparent that IF we all embraced a common "all children are equally valuable and worthy of life" attitude, then that could result in more human trust and fellowship, a reduction (if not abolition) of violence and warfare... The end result is that by NOT favoring your child's life over the lives of strangers' children, you may actually be creating a safer environment for your child and be BETTER ensuring your child's health and happiness and long life.

It is like this: Imagine you have a farm on very rich soil, surrounded by farms on poor soil. You have plenty of food and your neighbors are starving. You can be socialistic about your farm and share with your neighbors, thereby eliminating any ill will. Or you can sell your extra food to the highest bidder and buy luxuries with the extra money. This would likely create jealousy and animosity, though, in your neighbors. Fearing some thievery or violence by them, you probably would need to build some good security measures to keep yourself safe. High walls, checkpoint entry, border guards, the latest weaponry, etc. That costs money, too. So you have to keep charging your poor neighbors as much as possible for your food and perhaps even engage in other methods of making greater profit for yourself, such as trying to sabotage your neighbor's farming. This could make your neighbors even more hostile, requiring you to spend even more money on security... The richer you get, the more you spend on security and the more you need the security. That's sort of how America sits right now. Most Americans think we are a postiive force in the world, spreading goodness and charity to needy peoples. Yet we have 5% of the world's population using 25% of its resources or something like that. We have a military budget that is as much as the entire rest of the world combined spends on the military. Why? So we'll be safe.... But why do we have to fear for our safety?

We think we are giving our kids a better life because they have the latest electronic gizmos, because we have advanced medical techniques, and we have so much military might no one can seriously threaten us... But what if we had created a future where no one WANTED to threaten us? Where we did not have to stockpile nuclear weapons to deter attack? Where all the nice neighborhoods were not guard-gated? Are we really sure that gluttonous individuality is a happier lifestyle than a modest communal lifestyle?

It is possible that giving our children riches that far surpass what most of the world possesses is NOT giving them a gift, but is giving them a lodestone around their neck, a stone that will attract violence and hatred to them throughout their lives. Just like it is possible that giving our children preferential treatment to the chldren of strangers in matters such as who is deserving of life, health and happiness is, also, putting a lodestone around their necks that draws violence and hatred.

Well, going back to your two questions, the bottom line is these questions can be answered and the answers are relevant to current issues of practical morality.

~psychoblast~
 
beautifully written. thank you for your time, effort and (what i believe is) a truely noble point.

short ideological answer: none. this is based on one of my most fundamental beliefs that is 'to kill another is to fail in being a human being'.

honest answer: i am not smart, intelligent nor rational enough to have any idea how i'd react to extreme danger. let alone how i'd react if a child of mine was threatened. for never having had a child, i cannot appreciate that connection.

heheh chaos vs control: GET SMART
 
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psychoblast said:
I thought of a moral principle: You should not be willing to kill some one's innocent child to achieve some goal if you would not be willing to have your own child die to achieve that same goal. There are countless ways or applying that same moral principle to different situations: You should not be willing to kill an innocent person to achieve some goal unless you are willing to die yourself to achieve that goal. You should not be willing to maim an innocent person to achieve some goal unless you are willing to be maimed yourself to achieve that goal. This is my own realization of what is the fairest and simplest way of figuring out if a particular level of violence is warranted in a particular circumstance.

But it is worth examing how much pro-self, pro-family bias people have and admit to, which is the antithesis of my morality.

As with my short answer, the only solution (that I can see) to this dilemma is to avoid black and white/kill vs be killed/us or them ideas, themes, scenarios and discussions, which only seem to strengthen the idea that there is such a thing as objective moraity.

Although I'd love to say that I will NEVER kill another human being, I know I can never say never, so all I can honestly say is that I will always endeavour (to the best of my ability) to find another option.

For at any given moment, in any given situation, there are as many options as you can imagine.
 
1. How many adult strangers would you kill to save yourself (the strangers are NOT trying to kill you)?

The number is infinite, If I had the means I would continue killing as many people as the situation demanded. I would not hesitate taking lives if my own existence was on the brink of annihilation.

2. Would your answer change if the strangers were children? If yes, how?

Age would make no difference.

3. How many adult strangers would you kill to save your child (the strangers are NOT trying to kill your child)?

Although I doubt that I'll have children, if I did then I would treat their lives as I would treat my own, making my answer the same as in question 1.

4. Would your answer change if the strangers were children? If yes, how?

Same as question 2.

5. How many adult strangers would you kill to save your lover/spouse/soul mate?

If the person was a true soul mate then once again, I would have no hesitation in killing any number of people.

6. Would your answer change if the strangers were children?

Same as 2 & 4.
 
Like alot of people said, the number is infinite.
THIS IS THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE.
*survival* of the fittest- i think Darwin said that
 
i honestly dont think i could truthfully answer this. although PB you think it's as easy as answering your favourite colour, it really isnt!

i believe i wouldnt kill anyone else to save myself, if they werent directly attacking me. i like to think the same would be true about saving my husband. i couldnt possibly conjecture about my children - i dont have any, and i think being a parent changes you in ways i dont understand (until i become one myself).

i would like to believe that my answers would always be zero in all cases. but i just cant be sure.

i do know that my responses would not change with regard to whether the people killed were children or not - a person is a person, regardless of age or anything else such as nationality. (as per the Iraq war, i was very much against it)

i've thought about this before, and very often my answer comes out that i'd rather be the one to die. if it was me or my partner, i choose me. ditto my parents, and if i had kids then obviously same there. i dont think i could live with myself having made some of the awful choices implied in the quiz. but again, i cant be sure.

the difference could possibly be as simple as whether or not the choice was overt and immediate, or whether it was more subtle, complex and slow (eg the lifeboat/terrorist scenario versus the Iraq war). in the latter kind of scenario, more time would be available to allow reasonable & maybe more ethical thinking, as opposed to a kneejerk panic reaction. but then, it might just give you time to justify a fairly horrible solution to yourself. i just dont know.
 
for loved ones i would kill woman children and men. Anyone fucks with my family or friends..they die..simple as thatl. I care only for them and all the other people to me are irrelevant
 
Let me say that I think this is a great and a very practical topic for moral thought. It may never come to literally killing others to save your children, but issues of who to put first and who to sacrfice come up constantly in day to day life.

I hope that I would die without a second thought before killing someone else, but where your children, spouse, and even friends are involved the issue is much more complex.

Here it is good to think of Kierkegaard and the difference between the moral and the absolute. From a moral perspective in Kierkegaard's terms one should treat all people the same following a Kantian universalism. Thus it would be clearly wrong to kill someone else's child to save your own as in the oppisete case one would not want someone to kill your child in the same circumstances.

However that may be, the universal is not the highest plane of being. Love is not something that exists on this plane. From a universal/moral perspective, if your child and two other children were drowning and only your child or the other two could be saved, one should save the two children. But in my mind this would clearly be wrong. Humans are not mechanical, untilitarian creatures.

How much I would hurt other people to help my loved ones is an open question, but I would certainly take some burden of having harmed others to help those close to me.
 
goatyoghurt <3

I guess this 'survey' doesn't apply to depressed / suicidal people, now does it. ;)
 
1. This depends. If I didn't have to partake in the killing of these people, and if I didn't have to witness it either, then maybe... anything between 1 and 5 people. Maybe more, if they were evil. ;)

2. It probably would change if they were children. I hope that I'd never cause the death of any children (or adults either, for that matter).

3. If I didn't have to do the actual killing or witness it, it would probably be an infinite amount. If I had to pull the trigger, then maybe 3 at the most.

4. I probably would kill another child to save the life of my own...

5. Same as question 3.

6. Same as question 2. Anyway, if I did have a lover/soulmate, he probably would not want children to die for his life.

These are difficult questions to answer... I've tried to be as honest as possible, but I suspect that if I really were in that situation, I might not be able to live with the guilt of having taken someone's life... So maybe the real answer would be that I wouldn't kill anyone for any of the questions above. It all depends so much on who the people are as well. I mean, it would be harder to kill Nelson Mandela than George Bush, for example...
 
1. 0
2. No
3. N/A...never want children. never want to make that choice.
4. No
5. 0
6. No

I am a lover not a fighter in any situation....
 
I doubt that there'd ever be a situation where i'd have to kill a stranger who wasnt threatening myself, spouse, or kids.

In the extreemly unlikely event that I would have to kill an innocent person to save myself, i wouldn't do it, my life isnt more important to me than a stranger's right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.

If it was my family however, I wouldn't hold anything back. Their lives are that important to me. Except kids, it'd have to be one hell of a situation for me to kill an innocent child.
 
Dean Luna said:
Let me say that I think this is a great and a very practical topic for moral thought. It may never come to literally killing others to save your children, but issues of who to put first and who to sacrfice come up constantly in day to day life.

All the discussion in the world cannot effect the dice we call emotions. We all do what we feel like doing.

No Nay Xes said:
goatyoghurt <3

I guess this 'survey' doesn't apply to depressed / suicidal people, now does it. ;)

Nice one. But to answer seriously, a suicidal person is just as likely to react as defensively as anyone else, and vice versa, the most prepared may be stunned enough not to react at all.

If in imminant threat (measured in seconds), I'd bet nearly all of us will be like deer caught in headlights.
 
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