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Opioids How effective is Clonidine at treating opioid withdrawal symptoms? (esp methadone)

I don't understand why alpha adrenergenic agonists are preferred over beta blockers for opioid WD. Is it because opioid wd causes alpha adrenergic antagonism, instead of beta adrenergenic agonism?

It seems like beta blockers like Metoprolol have far less side effects than Clonidine: it doesn't "fuck you up" as much, you remember everything, you can walk around normally without getting knocked out, less of a rebound with hypertension, etc.
 
Clonidine is great for helping you get to sleep when coming off of short-duration opiates. Doesn't seem to work as well with long-lasting opiates like suboxone and methadone. When I was detoxing myself from suboxone I took 1.5 mg of clonidine (15 of the .1 mg pills) and still couldn't get to sleep.

I agree the propranolol is way better than clonidine for anxiety, blood pressure and all around usefulness, but propranolol doesn't help that much with sleep. When you're detoxing, you need as much sleep as you can get. Since you can't take both an alpha agonist and a beta blocker at the same time, it's better to take clonidine to get through the acute withdrawal and then propranolol to get through the post-acute withdrawal.
 
I don't understand why alpha adrenergenic agonists are preferred over beta blockers for opioid WD. Is it because opioid wd causes alpha adrenergic antagonism, instead of beta adrenergenic agonism?

It seems like beta blockers like Metoprolol have far less side effects than Clonidine: it doesn't "fuck you up" as much, you remember everything, you can walk around normally without getting knocked out, less of a rebound with hypertension, etc.

As I understand it ( albeit in my very limited and simplistic way. ) Noradrenaline I think is believed to be waaaay more active at the alpha 1 and 2 receptors than it is at the beta, and since it's specifically the over-production of Noradrenaline and / or over-excited and overly-rapid Noradrenergic neurone firing that results as a rebound effect of the sudden absence of the opiates that had previously suppressed that production / neurone firing that's posited as a major cause of many of the stereotypical withdrawal symptoms most users reports, symptoms being those associated with the Noradrenaline fuelled fight or flight response like raised blood pressure, increased heart and lung rate, trembling ,digestive tract shutdown, bowel looseness, etc that's why what might look like a simple case of hyper-tension that beta blockers could treat by inhibiting Noradrenaline's action at the beta receptors alone elsewhere they wouldn't do anything to cut the over-firing in the Locus Coeruleus that's driving the problem. That's what's being targetted with Clonidine / Lofexidine treatment.
 
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One of the other reasons why I like clonidine for opiate withdrawals is that it makes me drowsy and sedated enough to make me not want to get high, so in a roundabout way it helps with cravings. I would never do opiates while under the influence of clonidine, so once I start taking them when I am going to kick, I stick with the detox until it's over.
 
I would never do opiates while under the influence of clonidine

How come? I am planning on using it concurrently with a methadone taper. Granted the amount of methadone I am taking is not even enough to get me un-sick. Did you just mean you'd be too drowsy to bother going out and picking up some of your DOC? Or is there some health risk?
 
^ I should have specified, I would not want to get high on opiates while already sedated like that. I only like opiates on their own, as I find other substances to either dirty the high, or limit my brain from achieving the full potential euphoria. So yea, part of it is that I am too drowsy to put in the effort to get drugs, and the other part is that I think it would ruin the high.

As far as it being dangerous/a health risk, since you are on a maintenance dose and tapering then I don't see a problem with it, plus you can talk to your doctor about any contraindications. Also, I know people that are prescribed multiple opiates as well as clonidine, but they have high blood pressure. I'm sure it adds to the danger if someone is just using the opiates to get high, and I know some people have mentioned thinking about doing the combo to increase the nod, but I don't think it would do that in a good way.
 
^ I should have specified, I would not want to get high on opiates while already sedated like that. I only like opiates on their own, as I find other substances to either dirty the high, or limit my brain from achieving the full potential euphoria. So yea, part of it is that I am too drowsy to put in the effort to get drugs, and the other part is that I think it would ruin the high.

As far as it being dangerous/a health risk, since you are on a maintenance dose and tapering then I don't see a problem with it, plus you can talk to your doctor about any contraindications. Also, I know people that are prescribed multiple opiates as well as clonidine, but they have high blood pressure. I'm sure it adds to the danger if someone is just using the opiates to get high, and I know some people have mentioned thinking about doing the combo to increase the nod, but I don't think it would do that in a good way.

Thanks for explaining :-)
 
Probably more of a problem these days than it used to be. There was a time 12-15 years ago when I could get a full detox kit consisting of Dihydrocodeine, Lofexidine and Nitrazepam from my family GP, but these days they tend to refer anything addiction related to specialist addiction units with more expertise who are also able to offer none-medicinal treatments like NA, counselling, etc. I think that's policy these days. Same applies with alcohol addiction, my GP being either unable or unwilling to prescribe for that too so had to self-refer to the addiction unit for treatment.

Here 12-15 years ago everything looked different too. Still outside of the EU, the medications were much cheaper and everything could be got much easier. On the streets drugs were much more pure. But still, concerning opioid addiction it was a pain in the ass because I guess the only methadone programme was in Warsaw and it had a low capacity, it was more like a pilot programme. So there were both downsides and upsides. Now there are at least 11 MMT programmes but all are full and there is even no way like putting you on the queue. So, all in all the situation is actually the same for someone who wants to be legally on methadone/Suboxone, the only difference is all those MMT programmes are markets for methadone, strong benzodiazepines, and prescriptions for morphine extended release pills sometimes.

How I hate this country and I got stuck because of my health condition as soon as I came back from England, the irony of fate.
 
Clondine for withdrawals

Clonidine is a godsend, esp when used in combination with other meds. First off, it makes it extremely easy to get through those first 20 to 24 hours needed before you can take your suboxone/subutex/bupe, because if you, let's say, stop using opiates at 5pm, go to bed around 8 or 9pm, then sleep til witty's wake you, you can pop some clonidine and fall back to sleep for quite some time. SWIM was able to make it to nearly 19 hours of no use this way and took their sub at that time. Careful though, as the clonidine masks the withdrawal symptoms to a degree, so the C.O.W.S. scale you (should) be using to determine when you're in the clear to take your subs, isn't able to be followed very accurately, as most withdrawal symptoms you're looking for as cues to indicate readiness are simply not going to be present in the levels required by that scale. SO, I goes with the hours since last use and do their best to wait as LOOOOONG as they possibly can and until they can't stand it a second longer. That usually is plenty long enough. Once the subs are in use, a lil benzo action goes a long way, as does some sort of prescription amphetamine believe it or not. (low doses though, as coming down from adderall/dex/meth/etc. can often be physically painful and lead to giving in and using to alleviate those negative side effects. The benzos help immensely with that too though. So, I guess I am saying a detox cocktail is superior to any one drug's ability to alleviate your plethora of wd symptoms. Just use in lowest effective doses possible, stop the crutch drugs as early as you can stand to, and mind the hyper tension w/ the clonidine if you've taken it for any considerable time whatsoever. Surprisingly, Ibuprofen(and other nsaid's), Immodium AD, vitamins and minerals, and hot showers are under-rated godsends. They all have their place, just mind the labels and interactions so as to avoid getting yourself into trouble. Immodium AD, even alone, in rather high doses will temporarily alleviate your worst witty symptoms for quite some time. I believes this is due to it's being derived from a mild opiate. I has kicked many many times, and gained alot of knowledge along the way, and they assured me, these chems mentioned above, they WILL make your kick tolerable, hell, they'd venture to say easier than you ever thought possible. And American Dr's have been more than willing, even polite in prescribing clonidine and valium for said purpose when I approached the doc with an honest desire to stop for good, and, well, good health insurance didn't hurt either :D. But, if insurance is out, consider saving <no price discussion>a wk for awhile til you've got the medicine cabinet stocked and a trip to the doc covered (plus the cost of filling said scripts). At that point, dive in, because I thinks you'll be kicking yourself for not doing this sooner once discovered how truly painless (mild discomforting) this process becomes with the proper concoction. Good luck to you all, you've got freedom waiting for you a few good decisions away. I wish you all the very best, as no one knows more than I how debilitating and serenity-robbing this damn addiction can be. Start building on small successes and then follow those with what you know to be the next right step, then the next and the next, as these little successes are the celebratory stones which add up to a life free of bonds which held I ten years at least, and I began at only 17 with the ope's, so if they can do it, anyone can. Neural pathways, while strengthened and reinforced all the more heavily the earlier one begins imbibing chemicals to feel pleasure, CAN BE TAUGHT to respond to milder stimuli like normal folk whose entire lives weren't consumed by this cunning and baffling battle. It just takes time retraining them. And if u are anything like I, you're desperate to claw your way out of your bonds. Above is the ("a") formula for success. Now it's just up to you to employ these techniques. PS, don't forget that if drugs filled as much time as I am, a vacuum WILL be left in their wake. AA, NA, CA, HA, or any other group which puts you in touch with those fighting your same fight and preaches the examination of one's actions on a regular basis, prompting we correct our errs swiftly and honestly, will, in my opinion, increase one's chances of maintaining a stable, happy, and sustainable future w/out chems as a requirement. The rooms of the twelve steps, in My opinion, are certainly full of more than just those worth emulating, but the idea is to take what you need from them, and leave the rest. And, from experience, meetings are just the tip of the iceberg, they're not enough to keep one afloat. Step-work (aka, self-examination and willingness to improve on what that examination reveals) with a sponsor, conscious contact with whatever it is you see as your higher power, and rigorous honesty with yourself and others are what will ensure your ability to keep this up indefinitely, one day at a time. Good luck and best of wishes. I know your struggle and I feel for those still suffering. Until next time, I bid you adieu.

Furthermore, any weening down one can manage before attempting the plunge will pay off in less painfull witty's and a shorter overall period of discomfort. Plus, the crutch chems will be more effective the lower one manages to reduce their habit before diving into the detox plan. So do your best to at least slow down a bit before enacting a quit plan, even switching methods of administration to less invasive and milder ones. I.E. switch from injecting heroin to smoking or sniffing. And if that seems too lofty a goal, muscle or skin popping over IV administration (while still maintaining the most sterile injection process possible) will still reduce your suffering markedly come crunch-time. This is just another thing I picked up over their ten years of IV H abuse and simultaneous & prolonged addiction research. You can learn alot from a dummy. Please do.

OH! I nearly forgot to have me say this, the official amount of time it takes to get a physical addiction to Bupe is 17 days straight (assuming you've never crossed that threshold and taken it for longer than this.) So, keep the subs use to a minimum amount of days, basically, until you can tell you no longer NEED it in the morning to get by and do yourself a huge favor. STOP TAKING THEM. They're a godsend, and god-forbid, a person doesn't stop using forever on their first attempt, be smart and don't ruin suboxone for yourself as a quitting mechanism. Cuz, like all opiates. Getting physically addicted the first time is a longer, more arduous process. But, once that line's crossed, the physical habit is developed MUCH MUCH more quickly. So, be smart and only use the subs til the worst of the witty's subside, then remove that from your regimen. The last thing you want is to (Like Me) get a physical addiction to Bupe in a matter of 3 to 5 days. That's your destiny if you don't avoid overshooting the 17 day threshold and refusing to go past it. I certainly hopes your first attempt to stop is your last, but, if you're like many who've struggled with opiates, your first attempt is unlikely to be your be-all end-all great success. So don't shoot yourself in the foot and create another deterrent from trying to stop next time. Keep your Bupe options open and just avoid that 17 day mark. If you've not got it by then, I thinks a reassessment is in order, a regrouping, and an analysis phase to determine what it is that kept your from achieving your goal, then implementing your discoveries on your next concerted effort. Removing tools from your detox bag is a bad idea for very obvious reasons, so it's a no-brainer as to why you'd wanna keep your options as open as possible. Don't ruin subs, they may save you one day. I found the lack of subs as a viable quitting tool kept him running and gunning for MUCH longer than was necessary and than would've been likely had they still been an option. Dunno, just sharing My extensive experience in hopes another sufferer does it right. At least without creating the crushing hopelessness I has fought for over a decade, with that sub problem perpetuating the issue and contributing to more time using than I am proud of.
I truly hopes these words of advice help someone. Even if it's just one person. Everyone deserves a fair shot at life, and addiction severely hampers anyone's ability to get that fair shot. So, think long and hard before diving headlong into addiction. And if you're already there, think long and hard about taking the steps required to make a better life for yourself, complete with a brighter future, better earning capacity and longer typical lifespan, as each and every one of us, as humans, deserve that opportunity. We're all just people, but with education, prevention, and catching addiction before it's inevitable progression, we can better our own lives. More importantly perhaps, we can help to better the lives of those around us. Because Mother, Father, Sister, or Brother, there is no one that can replace you in that capacity, nor be the example those we love desperately need. You are uniquely suited to be exactly the type of person who those around us REQUIRE. Sure, others can step in and try to fill in/pick up the pieces, but each of us are uniquely well equipped to fulfill our highest familial and social roles. To think any other way is not only selfish and deluded, but it is a grave dis-service to those who count on us as a role model and example. No man is an island. Remember that the next time the needle/pipe/pill or patch is calling your name. Maybe that thought will be the one that turns things around for you and stokes the fire of your heart to jump this hurtle and fulfill your greater destiny. I hopes so.
 
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We do not use swim here at all. I edited out most of them.

Please break up the paragraphs. I did add all three of your posts but they still need to be paragraph form so someone will read it.

Also if you post answer a question or ask a question.

I know your new, btw Welcome to Bluelight!, but this seems to be more blog type material. Once you reach 50 posts you can blog away.

Please among all things, we DO NOT USE SWIM HERE.

Or my pet hamster, 2-3 party speaking, or my cousin hillbilly Ray.

Please read the forum guide lines and BLUA for our rules. Pm me with any questions.
 
aweseome, got it while kicking in jail, made errrrthing better

Gotta agree. Clonodine never worked for me. But I get huge habits(haven't used heroin since 2008 but I had a 4-6 bundle daily habit. So if you have a small habit idk could work. Just hasn't for me. Tried twice at detox, leaving both after the 2nd day. But hey everyones different. Had to do the 5 day methadone detox, worked WAY better IMO. OF course ull b a little uncomfortable after the 5 days but nothing compared w trying to quit w clonodine.
 
^^^

Yeah it honestly depends IME on how big your habit was for that particular detox, and how sick you are. For the times I was kicking really bad, after a big run, clonidine didn't do anything.. nothing did actually. Hah. But, if you're in after a medium-smaller sized habit, clonidine can be a life saver.
 
Clonidine never helped me much. I just felt it made the Lead Suit heavier and made me feel like I'd pass out...I do better with Kratom or Nerontin, but when your in the thick of MMT WDs nothing works but time....
 
Clonidine never helped me much. I just felt it made the Lead Suit heavier and made me feel like I'd pass out...I do better with Kratom or Nerontin, but when your in the thick of MMT WDs nothing works but time....

I would think compared to neurontin, clonidine would help alleviate many more wd symtoms with its action on bp, sweats, anxiety, rls, hot/cold flashes ect. When I went into detox a couple years ago, after dropping my done dose from 50-30 in 3 months, for the first week that I was kicking they gave me 10mg valium 2x daily and .2mg of clonidine 2xdaily. I had 0 tolerance to either and honestly it made the kick at least 50% easier and I know it was mainly the clonidine bc valium never did much in terms of wd alleviation other than somewhat take my mind off of the fact that I feel like shit. Now I ended up going to subs a week later bc I wasnt ready mentally at the time to quit and didnt want to end up back with oxy ruling my life, so maybe after awhile the clonidine loses effectiveness. But for that first week it was a godsend.
 
Oh I guess I missed the part about MMT ESSENTIAL. Yah it's not gonna do shit. I'm on methadone And have detoxed twice. I'm not trying to be the bearer of bad,news but I just can't see it helping(like the person after me said, nothing does.) Except going down slower, & finish going to the clinic. Don't get to 24(where it starts to become really hard & say fuck this & just STOP going. Bad idea IMO. U can didn't it, it's not(I.e. clonodine ) gonna hurt but you won't be sleeping like a baby. Good luck.
 
It's a freaking catch 22. Trying to get off methadone is really hard. But it did save my life. But I've been clean(besides weed) for 5 years & before methadone I could maybe get 30 days. Put my parents through hell went to jail twice(for 4 months each) lost my friends,jobs, money, you guys know the deal.
My friend is getting kicked off the clinic. They let her have two years of dirtys so it's her own fault. So she's going on subs tomorrow. I'm interested to see how it turn out. She was on 130mgs services @ 10mgs a week, got down to 34mgs(& 1 bundle a day, well a stack a week.) She stopped the clinic Fri @ 34mgs & has been doing dope ever since. She stopped the Dope @ noon & goes on subs tom @ 5. Better her than me, I'm scared to death of PC. Wds. I've been going down slowly from 90mgs & Im @ 45mgs. Wish I could be confident enough to get off EVERYTHING but the truth is I'm scared to death. Why switch to subs? Bc I'm sick of the fuckkng clinic. Sorry I got off topic a little.
 
^^

If you're at 45mg's you're getting pretty close to the dose where you can switch to bupe. 30mg and below is normally recommended, but obviously the lower you can get down, the easier it will be to get onto the bupe. But still, transitioning from methadone to buprenorphine can be really difficult.. it takes days of waiting long enough to avoid PW's, and even then, it'll take a couple days to a week for you to really stabilize on the bupe and feel 100%.

It's a rough transition, but worth it if you really want it.
 
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