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N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | someguyontheinternet
How different *really* is parachuting a substance as opposed to simply swallowing the individual capsules?
- Thread starter zeka
- Start date
Hey how's it going?
What are we referring to? Kratom, other...?
I prefer powder without the caps cause I just think it (capsules) are just wasted product, not sure what it may or may not to ti digestive system and takes longer to "digest" so it seems to slow the whole process down as far as recreational dosing. Pregabalin, gabapentin were a couple meds I trashed the caps.
Crushed others and down them.
I only do oral these days (well once in a while a puff or two) but I think oral anything is pretty much my go to.
No puns.
If only morphine wasn't so stubborn eating it but love the ER sulfate for pain... no more of that these days either.
Be safe and sees ya.
Peace
What are we referring to? Kratom, other...?
I prefer powder without the caps cause I just think it (capsules) are just wasted product, not sure what it may or may not to ti digestive system and takes longer to "digest" so it seems to slow the whole process down as far as recreational dosing. Pregabalin, gabapentin were a couple meds I trashed the caps.
Crushed others and down them.
I only do oral these days (well once in a while a puff or two) but I think oral anything is pretty much my go to.
No puns.
If only morphine wasn't so stubborn eating it but love the ER sulfate for pain... no more of that these days either.
Be safe and sees ya.
Peace
zeka
Greenlighter
- Joined
- May 20, 2022
- Messages
- 19
Not bad man just watching my bestie play castlevania :3
When asking this question, I specifically had pregabalin in mind. My doctor won't prescribe me a proper amount of benzos for my anxiety (just 10 pills every 3 months). So when I have bad anxiety I parachute about 700mg of pregabalin and its equivalent to about 1.5mg of lorazapam. Only issue is slow onset. Any suggestions on increasing bioavailability, or increasing absorbption or anything?
ANXIETY SUCKS!
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
Well, 96% of pregabalin is excreted by the kidneys unchanged and so those new age weirdos who drink their own pee would be in for a surprise (if they didn't believe herbal medicines are a cure all). Essentially they could remain chilled for WEEKS and that would re-enforce their odd beliefs.
No, I haven't tried this because I regard myself as moderately sane and not desperate.
No, I haven't tried this because I regard myself as moderately sane and not desperate.
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
I think you CAN extract it. If you add calcium hydroxide (or calcium oxide which is essentially cement), it will drop out of solution (if my reference is accurate). You can take as is as stomach acids will freebase it.
gordonliddy
Bluelighter
I think that this misunderstands the point of parachuting. The mythology behind parachuting purports that some drugs break down in the stomach (bad thing, right?) but get absorbed in the intestine.
If you have a bag of (crystal? powder?) drug and your goal is to get it into your intestine, obviously you're better off putting it in pills. There are a lot of different types of pill capsules, but the ones made for intestine-absorbed drugs ideally have capsules that are made from materials that resist break down in the stomach (protecting your drug) but then break down in the intestine, releasing your drug safely for absorbtion.
I'm going to make my example about molly, because that's the one that I have the most experience with. Some MDA as well. So smart people buy powder or crystal forms of drug when they can, because you can dose more precisely that way. Since your product comes in a little bag and your goal is to get it into your intestine, you're faced with a choice on how to do that.
The Party Kid way to do it is to just take more molly. Sure, some of it does get broken down in your stomach, but plenty makes it to your intestine. We were doing this for a while before one of my friends asked me if I knew of any way for us to take our game up.
Enter parachuting. Ideally, the parachute protects the dope while it's passing through your stomach. A truly well made little parachute should break down....just as the dope is passing from the stomach into the intestine! Parachuting is the poor man's response to pills.
I mentioned earlier that pills come in several types. That's because pills do several things. First generation pills were mostly to make medicine look cute, and more palitable. Pills can make medicine easier to sallow, and so on and so forth. But the type of pill that we're most interested in (if we're comparing against parachutes) are the type of pills already described that protect medicine between the stomach and the small intestine.
Pills are much better than a parachute. If you had pills on hand, I wouldn't even let you do a parachute it's pointless. But if you're a slacker like me and don't keep pills on hand, parachutes do a lot to help the molly into my system.
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
HOW does it break down in the stomach? Yes, it's mostly absorbed by the small intestine but I can find no reliable source on MDMA being 'broken down' in the stomach.
Parachuting on an empty stomach with a reasonable volume of fluid will see it pass into the small intestine in 30-90 seconds. Not much time for the stomach to 'break down' the MDMA.
Having tried parachuting, capping and pilling the same batch of MDMA, each time 125mg weighed with a 1970s vintage orange Ohaus balance (with the clunky dials that shifted the weights about) did reliably show parachuting to be the fastest oral method by about 20 minutes.
Some people snort MDMA but it's painful and the rush isn't as smooth.
I might add that taken orally MDMA will undergo first-pass metabolism so some N-demethylation will occur so in fact the CNS is hit with MDMA with some MDA in it.
Parachuting on an empty stomach with a reasonable volume of fluid will see it pass into the small intestine in 30-90 seconds. Not much time for the stomach to 'break down' the MDMA.
Having tried parachuting, capping and pilling the same batch of MDMA, each time 125mg weighed with a 1970s vintage orange Ohaus balance (with the clunky dials that shifted the weights about) did reliably show parachuting to be the fastest oral method by about 20 minutes.
Some people snort MDMA but it's painful and the rush isn't as smooth.
I might add that taken orally MDMA will undergo first-pass metabolism so some N-demethylation will occur so in fact the CNS is hit with MDMA with some MDA in it.
gordonliddy
Bluelighter
Theoretically acidification of the aromatic portion of the compound? I'm asking you how it breaks down. My doctor and I had assumed that this was correct. Anyways it's field effective so it's a sort of correct even if not fully correct.
Remember up until about ten years ago the literature of your field actually purported that molly ate holes in people's brain. Stylized CAT scans made the front page. The proof is in the pudding. Why does parachuting provide a superior ROA than swallowing the crystals? The stomach acide hypothesis is so logical that you're the first person to question it. Do you have a better way of looking at it?
Yes, hence the answer to the original question. OP seemed not to understand the point of the parachute and I wanted to make sure that they understood that a parachute doesn't necessarily have a point. Parachutes are relevant only in the case where you're interested in enjoying a drug by intestinal ROA that happens to have a sensitivity to stomach acid. Or perhaps to physical agitation, or what not. Saliva, I suppose.
Although here I'll reason that most drugs sensitive to saliva will also be sensitive to hydrochloric, barring saliva enzyme activity.
So if OP were partying with some one, and had acquired some salt or some powder or an oil and were thinking of taking it orally, would they be better off with a parachute? And the answer to that question satisies the boolean with the ven set of chemicals that have been selected for intestinal ROA, but are HCl sensitive. Here I'll repeat my question that most aromatics should present adequate reaction site to stomach acid?
Actually I've just rethought that and maybe parachuting should be the default for intestinal ROA?
See? I've never had my own blank pills. So you're claiming that parachuting is better than pills? Crazy! That's even one more argument against buying your molly in pill form.
I love MDA. Don't have a source, LOL. I used to know a guy who could get anything but my friends hated him and chased him off.
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
No - it takes liver enzymes to hydroxylate the aromatic.
In The Netherlands I used to know several small-scale producers and would be gifted grams of powder still warm from the heat-lamp used to do the final drying.
So, since I had an Ohaus scale I could measure to 0.1mg thus I got exactly the dose intended.
Of course, caps are more practical to smuggle into club (GFs bra) and convenient if you want to retail the stuff but while I've had to deal with USD officers, I was involved with 2CI synthesis at the time which was legal.
In The Netherlands I used to know several small-scale producers and would be gifted grams of powder still warm from the heat-lamp used to do the final drying.
So, since I had an Ohaus scale I could measure to 0.1mg thus I got exactly the dose intended.
Of course, caps are more practical to smuggle into club (GFs bra) and convenient if you want to retail the stuff but while I've had to deal with USD officers, I was involved with 2CI synthesis at the time which was legal.
Attacking aromatics usually requires a pretty strong electrophile, as well as something to soak up the ions released in the reaction.
Friedel–Crafts reaction - Wikipedia
If you look at the Friedel crafts acylation, you need a strong electrophile (an acyl chloride), Aluminum trichloride (a catalyst that promotes loss of the acyl chloride's chloride) and pyridine (to soak up hcl generated by the reaction, to allow it to proceed more). HCl in your stomach is not likely to protonate the benzene (though if you were to take a freebase form it would protonate the nitrogen).
MD(M)A metabolism is mainly hepatic by CYP2D6, with oxidative loss of the methylene carbon as carbene (which being insanely reactive will immediately inhibit CYP2D6). Conjugation of the now free alcohols will produce terminal metabolites such as the glucuronide. You will also get N-demethylation, deamination, oxidation and various phase II metabolism conjugates from the nitrogen end of the molecule. I am not aware of any papers that discuss metabolism of the phenyl ring, as there are more easy metabolic handles for your body to get rid of the compound.
Human pharmacology of MDMA: pharmacokinetics, metabolism, and disposition - PubMed
MDMA (3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine, ecstasy) is a widely misused psychostimulant drug abused among large segments of the young population. Pharmacologically it displays effects related to amphetamine-type drugs and a set of distinctive effects (closeness to others, facilitation to...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
HOOH
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2021
- Messages
- 421
MDMA freebase is essentially gassed with HCl to yield the hydrochloride salt that virtually all street and pharma-grade MDMA is, it can certainly survive stomach pH. Unless there's specifically an enzyme which would break MDMA down in the stomach.
I always thought parachuting was just to avoid the taste, and I don't think it has been in wide usage by any drug community.
When it comes to gassing to yield the HCl salt, isn't the concentration of HCl rather low if you compare it to the stomach? My assumption would be that the concentration matters in this case
gordonliddy
Bluelighter
I suppose that would depend upon any number of factors. If you chugged a large glass of water, your stomach acid concentration would drop. Possibly to a level of chemical insignificance, I wonder?
Meanwhile in the immediate vicinity of a gass buble, the concentration of HCl would be arbitrarily dense. How is the g-phase HCl added, I wonder? Is it bubbled in? I must profess complete ignorance of the way that molly, one of my favorite things in the world, is actually produced! Can anyone recommend a tech perhaps? @HOOH
I feel that the predominant factor might be the difference in benzene affinnity between an aqueous H-Cl cation (read: ion soup) vis-a-vis gas phase HCl benzene affinity.
My thought experiment shows the cation as far more reactive, and even chlorine-associated Hydrogen ions in aqueous should display a more polar dipole moment than gas phase.
Electrons in aromaticized p-orbitals are probably going to be the predominant factor in activation energy, right? Because they're pretty comfy where they're at, have no immediate need to decouple. Gaseous HCl should probably have a high velocity but tight bond distance. I don't feel like looking up whether the outer ring of chlorine is an s or a p orbital, although this might be relevant.
It would almost have to, as I propose a rate-mechanism for MDMA chlorination as 2nd order, first order with respects to molly and HCl.
The way I think about it is that when a gas is being bubbled through a liquid, there are cavities being formed, the bubble, where there is a relatively high concentration of the substance, HCl gas in this case, compared to the surrounding liquid. Gasses are pretty high energy so the HCl is constantly diffusing into the surrounding liquid so the liquid immediately surrounding the bubble likely has a transient moderate concentration of the HCl.
The MDMA base should be distributed fairly evenly throughout the solution during all of this, so the MDMA base that comes into contact with the HCl around the bubble-liquid interface is what's getting salted, this MDMA-HCl then should precipitate from solution as it gets attracted to its salted brethren which aren't as soluble in the nonpolar solvent.
During all of this, I don't think that the HCl concentration of the solvent where the MDMA is gets quite as high as it would be in the case of MDMA-HCl being introduced to stomach contents
All of this is speculation based on my chemistry education and reading, I don't necessarily have any formal sources off the top of my head for any of this so it may very well just be total nonsense, hopefully a real chemist can step in and correct me
The MDMA base should be distributed fairly evenly throughout the solution during all of this, so the MDMA base that comes into contact with the HCl around the bubble-liquid interface is what's getting salted, this MDMA-HCl then should precipitate from solution as it gets attracted to its salted brethren which aren't as soluble in the nonpolar solvent.
During all of this, I don't think that the HCl concentration of the solvent where the MDMA is gets quite as high as it would be in the case of MDMA-HCl being introduced to stomach contents
All of this is speculation based on my chemistry education and reading, I don't necessarily have any formal sources off the top of my head for any of this so it may very well just be total nonsense, hopefully a real chemist can step in and correct me
gordonliddy
Bluelighter
That's in my humble opinion a brilliant explanation.
The one part that I'd be really tempted to try to correct would be to say that I don't think it's so much that MDMA-HCl quasi-associated transition structure entitites are attracted per se to the precipitate lattice so much I'd expect as when molly-hydrochlorine structures happen to bump into the crystals and then not have enough energy to undergo solvation, then the exterior bays of the crystal won't disolve until they get enough activation energy.
I view it as an entropy thing for that reason.
I wonder what the bond angles in the crystals are? Rumor has it that molly is pink due to the additives. I would think that the bond angles would tell us something.
I did want to ask you, how sure are you that the molly is evenly distributed through the reaction media at the point of gassing? Because I've seen molly froth when I tried to dissolve it in juice once. But I'm only 89% confident that it was molly and not something similar as I bought it from a reputable source but it's not like I personally lab tested that sample.
Fun fact: I could find little about "frothing" in terms of technical jargon in the literature, which is funny because I can think of few things more relevant to production quality control than media homogeneity.
Generally speaking the molecules are bouncing around all fucking crazy like, while there may be brief instances of higher concentration due to probability overall it should be pretty even.
You're also right that the MDMA-HCl interacting with each other is an energetic thing, it's favorable for them to be with each other rather than with the nonpolar solvent. I guess that's just what I mean by "attracted"
You're also right that the MDMA-HCl interacting with each other is an energetic thing, it's favorable for them to be with each other rather than with the nonpolar solvent. I guess that's just what I mean by "attracted"
sekio
Bluelight Crew
There is no practical difference between taking pills, gelcaps, or "parachuting".
MDMA is perfectly stable in the stomach, the SWGDRUG analysis method for HPLC even uses a pH 2.2 buffer. Stomach pH varies from about 1.5-3.5[ref], and gassing MDMA freebase with gaseous HCl... well, you can't get much lower pH or greater reactivity than pure gaseous HCl.
A cGMP (certified Good Manufacturing Practices, i.e. pharma grade) kilo-scale synthesis of MDMA uses a solution of 0.4N HCl in isopropanol to form the salt, which surely will have a damn low pH. Their yield is low (~70%) but that would likely be because MDMA.HCl is somewhat soluble in isopropanol, and more could probably be recovered by concentrating the solution.
> Enter parachuting. Ideally, the parachute protects the dope while it's passing through your stomach.
First off, MDMA does not break down appreciably in the stomach, and suggesting a paper wrapper will 'protect' it is silly. Suggested experiment to prove this: Try making a 'parachute' of salt or sugar and drop it in a glass of water, wait anywhere from15 seconds to 2 minutes, and taste the water.
> But the type of pill that we're most interested in (if we're comparing against parachutes) are the type of pills already described that protect medicine between the stomach and the small intestine.
Those pills are called enteric coated pills, and require special coatings. MDMA pills are never enteric coated because 1. it costs a lot and 2. there is no need. The typical pill base used for MDMA tablets is going to be something inert like starch or microcrystalline cellulose that will disintegrate rapidly in the stomach (or any wet environment).
> Remember up until about ten years ago the literature of your field actually purported that molly ate holes in people's brain
Nice straw man argument. This "literature" you speak of was an episode of Oprah, hardly peer reviewed science. Also, the pharmacological effects of a drug are totally different than its chemical behaviour.
Curiously I don't see any papers, scientific or not, showing MDMA degrades in typical stomach conditions (aqueous HCl, pH 1.5-3.5, 37°C). You'd figure if it was such an obvious reaction someone would have documented it.
Apparently even in this day and age we still don't know the oral BA of MDMA (MAPS has a study they are planning though). But it's suspected to be high, which is inconsistent with it being destroyed in the stomach in anything more than small amounts.
> During all of this, I don't think that the HCl concentration of the solvent where the MDMA is gets quite as high as it would be in the case of MDMA-HCl being introduced to stomach contents
Actually, as I understand it, the reaction is not between gaseous HCl and the dissolved MDMA freebase. Instead solvents are used that have at least some solubility of HCl(g), and the reaction occurs in the liquid phase. Experiment to prove this: Check the pH of the solvent after MDMA.HCl has precipitated and gas evolution/addition has ceased. If the reaction is strictly gas phase and HCl is not dissolving, the solvent should logically be pH neutral, but you will probably find it is instead strongly acidic.
MDMA is perfectly stable in the stomach, the SWGDRUG analysis method for HPLC even uses a pH 2.2 buffer. Stomach pH varies from about 1.5-3.5[ref], and gassing MDMA freebase with gaseous HCl... well, you can't get much lower pH or greater reactivity than pure gaseous HCl.
A cGMP (certified Good Manufacturing Practices, i.e. pharma grade) kilo-scale synthesis of MDMA uses a solution of 0.4N HCl in isopropanol to form the salt, which surely will have a damn low pH. Their yield is low (~70%) but that would likely be because MDMA.HCl is somewhat soluble in isopropanol, and more could probably be recovered by concentrating the solution.
> Enter parachuting. Ideally, the parachute protects the dope while it's passing through your stomach.
First off, MDMA does not break down appreciably in the stomach, and suggesting a paper wrapper will 'protect' it is silly. Suggested experiment to prove this: Try making a 'parachute' of salt or sugar and drop it in a glass of water, wait anywhere from15 seconds to 2 minutes, and taste the water.
> But the type of pill that we're most interested in (if we're comparing against parachutes) are the type of pills already described that protect medicine between the stomach and the small intestine.
Those pills are called enteric coated pills, and require special coatings. MDMA pills are never enteric coated because 1. it costs a lot and 2. there is no need. The typical pill base used for MDMA tablets is going to be something inert like starch or microcrystalline cellulose that will disintegrate rapidly in the stomach (or any wet environment).
> Remember up until about ten years ago the literature of your field actually purported that molly ate holes in people's brain
Nice straw man argument. This "literature" you speak of was an episode of Oprah, hardly peer reviewed science. Also, the pharmacological effects of a drug are totally different than its chemical behaviour.
Curiously I don't see any papers, scientific or not, showing MDMA degrades in typical stomach conditions (aqueous HCl, pH 1.5-3.5, 37°C). You'd figure if it was such an obvious reaction someone would have documented it.
Apparently even in this day and age we still don't know the oral BA of MDMA (MAPS has a study they are planning though). But it's suspected to be high, which is inconsistent with it being destroyed in the stomach in anything more than small amounts.
> During all of this, I don't think that the HCl concentration of the solvent where the MDMA is gets quite as high as it would be in the case of MDMA-HCl being introduced to stomach contents
Actually, as I understand it, the reaction is not between gaseous HCl and the dissolved MDMA freebase. Instead solvents are used that have at least some solubility of HCl(g), and the reaction occurs in the liquid phase. Experiment to prove this: Check the pH of the solvent after MDMA.HCl has precipitated and gas evolution/addition has ceased. If the reaction is strictly gas phase and HCl is not dissolving, the solvent should logically be pH neutral, but you will probably find it is instead strongly acidic.
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Sorry for the late reply but I always try to eat something fatty with gabapentinoids and/or benzos. Just me probably so YMMV .
gordonliddy
Bluelighter
Re-emphising for OP. This may not be the final word on the subject but this is the best answer that I've been able to find.
Cool. So in other words the implied pKb of the diene bonds is to low to present a reasonable reaction target in the stomach. Got it. If you'd wanted to save ink, a listing of the pkB for the structure would have accomplished the same thing.
If you gave me a listing of bond lengths I could provide rough pKa on the fly. You know, with a pen and a bar napkin.
List of scientific misconduct incidents - Wikipedia
Jesus saves, but not those who publish false data!
I'm an outsider to your field but I'm not sure that someone in your field would document a thing just because it happened. I therefore think it unlikely that we can safely assume the non-prosecution of a reaction simply because it is undocumented.
Or you'd figure I dump an equivalent amount of muriatic in a jar with a trace amount of molly, and use a time-spectrum technique to get reaction rate. I'm not clear on why you think I'd accept the literature of your field over the evidence of my senses.
Typically when I set out to change someone's mind, I ask them to see what I would accept as proof rather than tell them what they should accept as proof. Unless you'd take the Bible as proof because I say you should? People keep telling me not to do that.
At any rate MDMA is at least stable enough with HCL that they can form a salt together, right?
Honestly, that's the most fascinating thing I've heard all day.
Regarding your proposed experiment, I love it but I could also do that for you with a spectrum by looking at bond lengths. What I think you and I should really be discussing is transition states. That tells the story.
Hope I don't seem like I'm pestering you. I'll provide a better summary of my actual chemistry experience soon because my perspective will make a lot more sense. At any rate, you have no idea how much your words mean to me as this was the stuff that I went to grad school to learn and talk about, but mostly the professors didn't understand it so I dropped out.