Give it up, and get it back?

[TheAppleCore]

I'm curious. Have any of you ever felt that you attained something only after willfully abandoning it? In other words, have you ever tried and tried to achieve something, lost all hope, and finally made peace with the idea that you'd just have to live without it -- upon which you suddenly found that you were overflowing with inspiration and energy, and you began to meet with success?

If the answer is "yes", my follow-up question is, how do you explain this apparent paradox?

 

[axnow]

Most definitely, in small and large ways.

I have been reading about the Tao lately so everything circles back to that these days. The idea of Wu Wei Wu "do not-do" or doing by not doing is central. My best understanding of that concept is allowing a result to emerge instead of forcing it to happen.

Another book on the subject is The Inner Game of Tennis. He puts it in very practical terms. When someone is explicitly trying real hard to, for example, hit a powerful serve, they start to tense up all over, they even wear a grimace, neck tendons popping out. They end up fighting through secondary muscles tensed up counter to the serve.

This is a great metaphor for any achievement we strive for. We simply can't understand the true pure nature of the way forward and we create conscious and unconscious conflicts, tension, distraction etc. due to our shitty xerox of reality. The really hard part is relaxing into the paradox of non-attachment to an outcome we desire.

A specific example: I write software for a living and I constantly have to let my ego float away. Thoughts about how clever my solution is or how others on my team would do better or worse or chasing tangents that may be satisfying but not valuable.

Honestly I think this whole idea is central to one's ability to be content and successful. I think about it constantly.

 

[TheAppleCore]

Great response, thank you very much! In my quest to solve this riddle, I have also read the Tao Te Ching, and found it quite relevant, but I'm not sure why it didn't occur to me to ask friends and forums about it until now!

We simply can't understand the true pure nature of the way forward and we create conscious and unconscious conflicts, tension, distraction etc. due to our shitty xerox of reality. The really hard part is relaxing into the paradox of non-attachment to an outcome we desire.

Well put.

When I was going through my Richard Dawkins phase, I put an evolutionary spin on the issue. The genomes of living organisms have the appearance of brilliant engineering, but there is no engineer to be found, only the "blind watchmaker" of natural selection. I wonder if there is a similar organic process that happens within our minds?

 

[Xorkoth]

Yes, that is exactly what happened to me with opiate addiction. Over the course of 10 years I battled with it, and got to the point where I knew deep down that I was going to be addicted to opiates forever. I accepted it and I started wishing for death, it was a very dark place. Then one day I just woke up and realized I had been slowly driven insane but that wasn't who I am and I've never touched another opiate, and I've had no problems not doing it either.

How do I explain it? I took ibogaine. So I'm not sure whether this really applies to your question or not. But it was like that experience flicked a switch in my brain and I got my motivation and inspiration back. It was like night and day. There was an external factor, the ibogaine, and also the fact that my long-term negative relationship/marriage was over, but there was this one moment at my lowest where everything suddenly changed and I've felt different since then.

 

[TheAppleCore]

Fascinating, thanks for sharing! Have you written in further detail about your ibogaine experience, and specifically how it helped you conquer the addiction?

 

[Xorkoth]

Yeah I wrote the world's longest trip report about it, it's actually near the top of the TR forum right now. Though to be honest I'm not exactly sure how, it worked through dreams basically, I was dreaming whether awake or asleep for 3 days, and it all sort of just came together somehow in this one moment. There was no satisfyingly intellectual reason for it or anything. I just came out of it feeling strong and awakened, and also it seemed to physically root it out of my brain, a reset of sorts.

 

[vortech]

I had to sleep on this question because I wa frankly overwhelmed trying to encapsulate it. My first thought today was how it is similar to the first of the 12 steps in AA/NA. Surrending, admitting you are powerless over drugs and alcohol, which is a little paradoxical, because if one admits powerlessness then shouldn't they continue to be controlled by drugs? So in a sense it is giving up control in order to achieve control.
Personally I have experienced this in so many other ways. Giving in to the natural ebbs and flows of Universal Energy allows the path of least resistance. The more you fight and push at it, the more it pushes back, and that seems to be how the Universe keeps things balanced.
As a greater example, for a long time I questioned my belief in 'God', or the nature of God, and in a way I was playing a game, seeking signs so that I could finally be convinced of an almighty hand. It got me into some trouble, as it seems my inquiries produced responses, but not always a 'I have the holy spirit flowing through me' sort of revelation, but rather a chain reaction of events that lead to a bit of a lesson to not question the power of the almighty hand, because it might just punch you in the face to wake you up.

 

[TheAppleCore]

My first thought today was how it is similar to the first of the 12 steps in AA/NA. Surrending, admitting you are powerless over drugs and alcohol, which is a little paradoxical, because if one admits powerlessness then shouldn't they continue to be controlled by drugs? So in a sense it is giving up control in order to achieve control.

I too have thought about the 12 steps in relation to this issue; there must be a connection.

As a greater example, for a long time I questioned my belief in 'God', or the nature of God, and in a way I was playing a game, seeking signs so that I could finally be convinced of an almighty hand. It got me into some trouble, as it seems my inquiries produced responses, but not always a 'I have the holy spirit flowing through me' sort of revelation, but rather a chain reaction of events that lead to a bit of a lesson to not question the power of the almighty hand, because it might just punch you in the face to wake you up.

The God phenomenon is very tricky that way... the harder you look for it, the darker it gets. Personally, I think he's playing hide-and-seek with us.

 

[Foreigner]

It has to do with yielding to an experience versus simply collapsing. When you yield you surrender with awareness and it creates space for allowing, versus when a situation overwhelms you and you simply collapse from exhaustion. Look at how a cat yields to gravity... they don't just plop down, they sequence their body into a position. Dogs do it too. The same thing happens cognitively when we yield into an experience. We decide to stop fighting the force that is pulling at us and finesse into it in a conscious way. So instead of fighting that there is lack of an experience there is a yielding into the lack, which creates a kind of inner refuge zone for you to "be ok" there, at which point you can let it go.

Going with the addiction example, it's why I believe we should just let addicts be addicts if that's where they're at. Criticizing or punishment only creates resistance within them because it imprints them with an inner critic that will never let them yield into their addiction experience... so it never gets resolved. This approach can be applied to ALL areas of life. For me it applies to yearning for partnerships. Once I let go of searching and trying to force an experience, I tend to meet long-term partners.

I strongly believe experientially that the universe (or whatever you want to call it) is trying to give us the quintessential experiences we genuinely need and want but if there is any inward resistance to what we are asking, it creates cognitive dissonance and the request becomes impure.

 

[-=SS=-]

I'm curious. Have any of you ever felt that you attained something only after willfully abandoning it? In other words, have you ever tried and tried to achieve something, lost all hope, and finally made peace with the idea that you'd just have to live without it -- upon which you suddenly found that you were overflowing with inspiration and energy, and you began to meet with success?

If the answer is "yes", my follow-up question is, how do you explain this apparent paradox?

Sounds very similar to the 'Eureka!' process an inventor or scientist undergoes when either inventing or discovering something that has never before been brought into this world. I saw it delineated in a book once and there were like 5 stages in the process.. all I remember is that essentially one applies energy to the problem and vacillates (the first 3 stages?).. doing this and that.. until they reach a point where they can do no more. This can sometimes be years or even decades in the making. They've exhausted all their energy to the problem and smashed it until they were totally done.. basically turning their brain/computer completely over to the problem.. and during the walking away from it the tension is released from the brain and the answer rushes in.

It also sounds very similar to the process involved in achieving a spiritual elation. Perhaps it is all one and the same mechanism anyway. You fill up your computer with nothing but the problem.. then you release it from the circuitry of your brain in one go.. and as you do the answer/invention/discovery/god/whatever rushes in.

 

[Yourbaker]

It has to do with yielding to an experience versus simply collapsing. When you yield you surrender with awareness and it creates space for allowing, versus when a situation overwhelms you and you simply collapse from exhaustion. Look at how a cat yields to gravity... they don't just plop down, they sequence their body into a position. Dogs do it too. The same thing happens cognitively when we yield into an experience. We decide to stop fighting the force that is pulling at us and finesse into it in a conscious way. So instead of fighting that there is lack of an experience there is a yielding into the lack, which creates a kind of inner refuge zone for you to "be ok" there, at which point you can let it go.

Going with the addiction example, it's why I believe we should just let addicts be addicts if that's where they're at. Criticizing or punishment only creates resistance within them because it imprints them with an inner critic that will never let them yield into their addiction experience... so it never gets resolved. This approach can be applied to ALL areas of life. For me it applies to yearning for partnerships. Once I let go of searching and trying to force an experience, I tend to meet long-term partners.

I strongly believe experientially that the universe (or whatever you want to call it) is trying to give us the quintessential experiences we genuinely need and want but if there is any inward resistance to what we are asking, it creates cognitive dissonance and the request becomes impure.

This seems very insightful. Specifically the addiction example, being both an addict and having worked with recovery and addiction issues for years going through the process of giving up is essential to healing. The mind set of the addict has to change to a loathing of the addiction and a feeling of powerlessness or being overwhelmed, then once you have given up you can find help and succeed.

 

[Xorkoth]

^^ For me, I was addicted for 10 years to opiates, almost destroyed my life. I grew to loathe the addiction for sure, but once I eliminated the source of what I was covering up with it (a bad marriage), I felt a sense of power rather than powerlessness and I stopped and haven't even had the desire to use them again for almost 3 years. I really think the 12-step/powerlessness model is maybe necessary for some, but can be quite harmful to others. I'm no longer an opiate addict and it would be detrimental to me to believe that I am and always will be... by framing my life around fearing my powerlessness against them, I would struggle forever, whereas now I no longer struggle.

 

[Yourbaker]

I would have to agree with that Xorkoth with regard to the end of an addiction. I spent about 1/2 my life pouring alcohol over my brain til it broke everything about me. Until I realized I couldn't control my problem I didn't think it was one. Once I realized how bad I was I tried to stop but every bad day or personal feeling of entitlement I'd go straight back to it. Ultimately I quit by switching weed for booze, I just wasn't expecting a spiritual awakening a month later. I had abandoned my faith in God because I couldn't fit myself into christianity being gay, maybe that was my issue, my view of God has expanded massively, well beyond the tiny confines of religions, or I may have gone insane but either way I'm happier and only addicted to weed.

 

[TheAppleCore]

It has to do with yielding to an experience versus simply collapsing. When you yield you surrender with awareness and it creates space for allowing, versus when a situation overwhelms you and you simply collapse from exhaustion. Look at how a cat yields to gravity... they don't just plop down, they sequence their body into a position. Dogs do it too. The same thing happens cognitively when we yield into an experience. We decide to stop fighting the force that is pulling at us and finesse into it in a conscious way. So instead of fighting that there is lack of an experience there is a yielding into the lack, which creates a kind of inner refuge zone for you to "be ok" there, at which point you can let it go.

This reminds me of the Serenity prayer. If you're not so busy fighting the things you cannot change, it makes sense that you would have more energy to solve the problems you can.

Sounds very similar to the 'Eureka!' process an inventor or scientist undergoes when either inventing or discovering something that has never before been brought into this world. I saw it delineated in a book once and there were like 5 stages in the process.. all I remember is that essentially one applies energy to the problem and vacillates (the first 3 stages?).. doing this and that.. until they reach a point where they can do no more. This can sometimes be years or even decades in the making. They've exhausted all their energy to the problem and smashed it until they were totally done.. basically turning their brain/computer completely over to the problem.. and during the walking away from it the tension is released from the brain and the answer rushes in.

Do you remember which book you read that in? I might be interested in checking it out.

I'm no longer an opiate addict and it would be detrimental to me to believe that I am and always will be... by framing my life around fearing my powerlessness against them, I would struggle forever, whereas now I no longer struggle.

Yeah, but the "powerlessness" has to mean something other than the commonplace sense of the word. Because if addicts were truly powerless against their addiction, surely they couldn't solve it by following the 12-step program in the first place?

 

[Xorkoth]

I dislike the idea of "you're powerless against your addiction, by yourself you have no hope, you have to turn to Christisanity and then God can help you." (with or without the religious aspect) It creates this atmosphere of terror against yourself. Seems like no way to live. Once and addict, always an addict. I don't necessarily buy that for everyone.

 

[Yourbaker]

Maybe try to not go with powerless instead think of it as you stop fighting against it. I realize I've picked up christinsanity on the side but that was my issue and where my addiction was coming from. I'm still addicted to weed but I just don't care about that. I don't fiend it like every other addiction from tobacco to coffee. I actually quit alcohol a month before my insanity hit, so I wasn't giving it up to my higher power I just gave up the struggle cause I felt like I couldn't win and then I quit one day.

 

[-=SS=-]

Do you remember which book you read that in? I might be interested in checking it out.

I believe it was one of Joseph Chilton Pearce's books, possible 'Crack in the Cosmic Egg'.

 

[stoned.crazy]

I've noticed this happen too many times to count. I like how foreigner put it. I believe when we want something, we experience what it takes to achieve whatever it is that we want. Along the way we may change our goals as each situation slightly changes us. Simply by acknowledging that we don't already have whatever it is we put up a mental wall that manifests itself as the subjective reality we experience. That gives rise to the illusion of separateness we experience in this dimension. Relativity. I am what I am relative to what I believe I'm not if that makes sense lol.

And I think an important thing to remember about that whole 'powerless over your addiction' issue is we're constantly changing. Every second, minute, hour and with every decision we make we're altered a little bit. One day you might be in the mood for pizza, the next it may be spaghetti. One day you can be an addict, the next you may not be. I think that step is more about breaking the thought patterns that keep our addiction going so that we can open the door for change by installing new thought patterns. In the beginning we all think we can control our usage. We're all too smart/strong to become addicted, or so we tell ourselves.

Everything is cause and effect. If we build a structure on a faulty foundation, we need to replace that foundation or risk the whole thing collapsing. It's essentially the same exact concept.