For those of you who a afraid of GHB

[synchrojet]

Therapeutic GHB does not cause withdrawal


The abrupt cessation of therapeutically administered sodium oxybate (GHB) does not cause withdrawal symptoms
J Toxicol Clin Toxicol 41(2), 131-5 (2003)
Medline (PMID=12733850)

Sodium oxybate (gamma-hydroxybutyrate; GHB) has demonstrated efficacy for the treatment of narcolepsy. However, there are reports of withdrawal following chronic abuse of illicit GHB which involve escalating both doses and dosing frequency. The present trial afforded an opportunity to test the hypothesis that chronic daily therapeutic dosing of sodium oxybate in narcoleptics does not cause withdrawal following abrupt cessation. Fifty-five narcoleptic patients, taking sodium oxybate (dose range 3-9 gm/night) for 7-44 months (mean 21 months), were randomized into a 2-week double-blind period: 29 patients received placebo and 26 continued to receive sodium oxybate. During this 2-week trial period, the following symptoms were reported in patients receiving placebo (N): anxiety (2), dizziness (1), insomnia (1) and somnolence (1). While these symptoms may represent possible symptoms of mild GHB withdrawal, they are also highly consistent with the returning symptoms of narcolepsy. We conclude there is minimal evidence of withdrawal symptoms following abrupt cessation of chronic sodium oxybate dosing in the therapeutic range.

...ok, there ya go. And I can personally attest to the fact that dosing at a rate of between 20-30 grams daily does not cause any withdrawals.

I looked up the so called 'death from GHB withdrwals' case. I will wait until some commentary before I post the particulars, but suffice it to say that withdrawals were not the cause of that death...not by a long shot.

Here's some more info originally posted by pHarmacist on the hive:

Gamma-hydroxybutyrate ("GHB") is a naturally occurring substance that is widely distributed in the mammalian body, being present, for example, in the brain, kidney, heart, liver, lung and muscle (Nelson, et al., J. Neurochem., 37: 1345-48 (1981)). When administered exogenously, GHB readily crosses the blood-brain barrier and penetrates the brain, producing a number of neuropharmacological effects. For over 35 years, GHB has been used as an intravenous agent for the induction of anesthesia and for longterm sedation, without serious side-effects on circulation or respiration (Entholzner, et al., Anesthetist, 44: 345-50 (1995)), and without an accompanying seizure- inducing activity in humans (Tunnicliff, Clinical Toxicology, 35: 581-90 (1997)). Patients with chronic schizophrenia characterized by autism, inactivity, and apathy; catatonic schizophrenia; chronic schizophrenia with hallucination and delusion; atypical psychoses; and chronic brain syndrome due to trauma, as well as neurotic patients (Tanaka, et al., Folia Psychiatrica etNeurologica, 20: 9-17 (1966)), have all been treated using GHB. It also has recently been suggested that GHB may be a suitable agent for total intravenous anesthesia in patients with coronary artery disease (Kleinschmidt, et al., Euro. J. Anesthesiology, 14: 590-99 (1997)), as well as for sedation during spinal anesthesia (Kleinschmidt, et al., Euro. J. Anaesthesiology, 16: 23-30 (1999)).

In addition to these uses, GHB also is used to treat narcolepsy, a chronic sleep disorder that usually begins in adolescence or early adulthood and lasts throughout life. Narcolepsy is characterized by sudden sleep attacks lasting usually from a few to thirty minutes, paralysis upon lying down or waking, visual or auditory hallucinations at the onset of sleep, and temporary loss of muscle tone while awake (cataplexy) or asleep. Treatment with GHB substantially reduces these signs and symptoms of narcolepsy in humans (Scharf, Sleep, 21: 507-14 (1998)).

Other uses of GHB include its application in the pharmacotherapy of alcoholism, where it has been found to reduce alcohol craving and consumption, and to ameliorate symptoms of alcohol withdrawal syndrome in alcoholics (Colombo, et al., Physiology & Behavior, 64: 293-302 (1998); Addolorato, et al., The Lancet, 351: 38 (1998) and references therein). GHB also reportedly aids patients undergoing withdrawal from opiates (Andriamampandry, et al., Biochem. J. 334: 43-50 (1998) and references therein) and relieves anxiety, tremor, and muscle rigidity in patients with Parkinson's disease (Tanaka, et al., Folia Psychiatrica et Neurologica, 20: 917 (1966)). Administration of GHB also has been reported to protect neurons and intestinal epithelium against cell death resulting from experimental ischemia (Kaufman & Nelson, Neurochemical Research, 16: 965-74 (1991) and references therein), to drop blood pressure in hypertensive patients (Tanaka, et al., Folia Psychiatrica et Neurologica, 20: 9-17 (1966)), to increase plasma levels of growth hormone after injection in healthy subjects (Gerra, et al., Int'l Clinical Psychopharmacology, 9: 21115 (1994)), and to stimulate growth hormone and prolactin production (U. S. Patent No. 5,840,331 to Van Cauter, et al.). Administration of GHB also is purported to be an effective anorectic, heighten sexual desire, produce pleasurable effects such as euphoria and smooth muscle relaxation, promote muscle mass, and be able to induce rapid eye movement sleep (Ropero Miller & Goldberger, Clinics in Laboratory Medicine, 18: 727-46 (1998)).

PCT WO 99/09972 and U. S. Patent No. 5,990,162 to Scharf discloses the use of GHB in the treatment of fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome.

Administration of GHB also has been shown to increase gastric emptying (Poggioli, et al., Life Sci. 64: 2149-54 (1999)), and could be used as a prokinetic drug for treatment of a number of conditions where improvement in gastrointestinal motility and gastric emptying is desired. Such conditions include treatment of malabsorption disorders, and increased uptake of poorly absorbed drugs. Gamma-butyrolactone which is metabolized to GHB has been shown to potentiate the effect of gamma-aminobutyric acid on gastric secretions (Watanabe, et al., Jpn. J Pharmacol. 33: 1163-69 (1983)). GHB has shown anti-ulcer activity against ulcers induced by indomethacin, restraint stress or pyloric ligation (Yong, et al., Chung Kuo Yao Li Hsueh Po; 10: 350-53 (1989))[blue]. Other uses of GHB have been described in [blue]Tanaka, et al., Folia Psychiatrica et Neurologica, 20: 9-17 (1966).

In animals, GHB produces electroencephalographic (EEG) and behavioral changes, resembling generalized absence seizures. The treated animals show arrest of activity which can be aborted by anti-absence drugs.

For this reason, GHB has been used to provide a reproducible, consistent, pharmacologically specific model for the study of generalized absence seizures, which is analogous to other models of absence in the rat (Snead, Neuropharmacology, 30: 161-67 (1991) and references therein). GHB administration also has been used in animals to normalize cardiovascular function of hemorrhage and as an anti-ischemic (Cash, Neuroscience & Behavioral Rev., 18: 291-304,1994). In mice, GHB was found to exert a radioprotective effect (Cash, Neuroscience & Behavioral Rev., 18: 291-304 (1994)).

Infusion of GHB also has been found to possess an angiogenesis inhibitory effect, making GHB potentially useful in the treatment of cancer as an anti-angiogenesis agent (Yonekura, et al., Clin. Cancer Res., 5: 218591 (1999)). GHB also has been used prophylactically in rats as an antihypoxant, antioxidant, or actoprotector, increasing survival rates of rats with myocardial infarction (Dubovaia, et al., Eksp. Klin. Farmakol. 59: 51-54 (1996); Tsorin, et al., Eksp. Klin. Farmakol. 56: 25-27 (1993)). GHB reportedly prevents heart damage after acute blood loss (Meerson, et al., Kardiologiia 22: 38-44 (1982)).

GHB may also be administered prophylactically to reduce inflammation or ischemic or reperfusion injury during surgery. Prophylactic administration of GHB prevented liver damage to tetrachloromethane poisoning (Eksp Kim Farmakol., 59 (4): 51-54 (1996)). The lithium salt of GHB depressed carrageenan inflammation in a hamster cheek pouch assay (Aleksandrov & Speranskaia, Biull. Eskp. Biol. Med. 106: 233-35 (1988)).

Prophylactic administration of lithium salt of GHB prevented inflammation in acute paw edema assay (Aleksandrov & Speranskaia, Biull. Eskp. Biol. Med, 103: 188-90 (1987)). GHB has been shown to improve blood flow to ischemic heart tissue (Matsievskii, et al., Biull Eksp Biol. Med; 106: 531-33 (1988)). GHB also has been used to protect frozen liver tissue for transplantation (Sherman, et al., Transplantation 57 : 8-11 (1994)).

Sodium 4-hydroxybutyrate has been shown to affect metabolism (Petrin, et al., Vopr. Med Khim, 39: 36-39 (1993)), as its administration reduced nucleotide catabolism, glycolysis, lipolysis, and lipid peroxidation.

Sodium hydroxybutyrate also has been shown to stimulate the pentosophosphate cycle and interfere with metabolic acidosis (Lopatin, et al., Farmakol. Toksikol, 47: 53-55 (1984). Thus GHB may be used to improve metabolism and to offset the damaging effects of injury, surgery, ischemia and shock.

GHB has been shown to prevent the proliferation of cancer and functions as an antineoplastic agent (Basaki, et al., Gan To Kagaku Ryoho, 27: 93-98 2000)). GHB and gamma-butyrolactone have been shown to reduce angiogenesis induced by certain types of cancer cells (Yonekura, et al., Clinical Cancer Research, 5: 2185-91 (1999)). GHB also has been shown to be beneficial for the treatment of lung cancer patients during and after surgery (Leonenkov, et al., Vopr. Onkol., 39: 75-79 (1993)) and this benefit was attributed to the antihypoxic effects of GHB. Accordingly, GHB can be used to prevent the spread or proliferation of a cancer.


So there ya go.


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[Partykid12]

If only it were available again.....

 

[Gaz_hmmmm]

Move to Europe, it's a piece of piss to get GBL!

 

[ZaphodB]

Move to Europe, it's a piece of piss to get GBL!

Not in Sweden

 

[Benzo]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR AWESOME POST. I NOW HAVE FURTHER DOCUMENTATION TO BACK UP ALL THE ARGUEMENTS I FIND MYSELF GETTING INTO DEFENDING G AND THE MASSIVE RANGE OF MEDICINAL BENEFITS IT CAN HAVE WHEN USED APPROPRIATELY.
ROCKING POST....MY PRINTER WILL BE BUSY!

 

[JustinTime]

Nice to see that you've found the caps lock function.

Do you know that you can turn it off by pressing it again?

 

[negrogesic]

synchrojet: you seem to have extensive information concern this substance. What do you think about 1,4-butanediol?

 

[synchrojet]

Constant ingestion of a -diol will result in liver damage, first off. I know the government findidngs suggest that there is no reason to assume organ specific carcinogenesis, but they are operating of the assumption that 1,4 and GHB are identicle in their actions due to the conversion. However, they fail to consider that the conversion takes place via the alcohol dehydrogenase pathway, and competes with alcohol so there is a delayed toxicity issue, and finally, that a -diol will have a biological impact all its own.

Anyone who has taken 1,4 will attest to the fact that it does NOT feel the same as GHB (usually it is thought of as 'dirtier' and more of an intoxicated feeling). Well, this is because they are not the same at all.

The delayed toxicity issue can make addiction a very genuine reality with 1,4. Return to baseline takes substantially longer with 1,4, so a dopamine build-up becomes much more probable and turns into a problem much faster.

Remember, it is the dopamine imbalance that creates the unpleasant effects that people are calling withdrawals. Technically not the same, but it could sure feel the same.

Also, it seems that 1,4 will more dramaticlly affect the blood pH (no clinical evidence yet, but some empirical data amongst intelligent colleaguse supports this). When you combine metabolic acidosis with a dopamine surge you are gonna feel downright shitty, believe me.

Metabolic acidosis can be fatal, btw.

In fact, I have speculated that the so called addiction cases that were formally studied involved homemade gHB that was probably not precisely neutral, and therefore resulted in metabolic acidosis which of course was labeled withdrawal syndrome.

Strangely, I cannot find the blood pH of any of the subjects, and I wonder if it was even recorded.

The recovery times were consistent with the recovery time needed for return to normal blood pH, incidentally.

Also, as the above study shows, withdrawals, even addiction, have yet to be found in any subject who has been prescribed GHB, some of whom have taken it for over ten years, every day.

I can attest to the fact that GHB can change its pH slightly, probably due to the fact that the reaction of GBL-->H2O<---GHB is a two way reaction, and although it does not ever react completely one way or the other, any liquid GHb obviously contains water and is therefore intrinsically slightly unstable. Measure your pH regularly to be sure it is 7.5-ish.

To answer your question, though, I think 1,4 butanediol is one of the most dangerous drugs a person can indulge in, and I recommend avoiding it altogether.

If you have GBL, convert it. Its simple, and you will not have the acidosis issue to contend with.

Inidentally, I have also wondered if many of the GHB addictions are in reality GBL acidosis matters, for the same reasons as cited above.

The reason I am skeptical about GHb causing any type of withdrwals, when properly made and taken with a higher awareness, is because I have done consecutive months on for 24/7 and quit cold without any problems at all, as have many of my colleagues. We are simply perplexed.

Don't get me wrong, now. We have all felt the effects of acidosis, and when we go for long stretches without any Green Kamut/lemons and chlorophysll we start feeling sketchy when the dose wears off. But supplementation with these pH balacning foods takes that sketchiness right out of the picture.

I never have dosed in hourly intervals, though. To me that just SEEMS stupid. Also, where is the self awareness in such a practice? To get to that point to begin with one has to take lots of GHB for a long time. At what point does a person start asking themselves what is happening?

I ALWAYS allow four hours minimum between doses, regardless. Usually six. Some days I just take off to allow the dopamine to clear, even if I feel perfectly great. I can tell when dopamine builds a little because there is a slight angst about eight hours after a dose wears off. I have wondered if that what people are calling a withdrawal. If so, then we have VERY different definitions of withdrawals! After all, does someone have to do heroin over and over every day for months to get withdrawals?

Also, if you notice somthing like that, why not look into it, stopping whatever drug you are taking while you educate yourself about what is happening?

To me GHB addiction is a result of ignorance more than anything, and it is my opinion that it is actually habituation. Quitting GHB is easy. It sorta sucks, but its easy all the same...

Its hareder to stop drinking cokes than to stop taking G, at least for me.

Anyway, hope that helps answer you.

 

[Gaz_hmmmm]

Don't get me wrong, now. We have all felt the effects of acidosis, and when we go for long stretches without any Green Kamut/lemons and chlorophysll we start feeling sketchy when the dose wears off. But supplementation with these pH balacning foods takes that sketchiness right out of the picture.

I use GBL. I use it roughly every 3 days. Anyway I'm a lil' confused about how eating lemons and other acidic food can help reverse acidosis. Surely having alkaline foods would be better, like milk?


You have any more info' on GHB/GBL/1.4B or any good links? Thx

 

[laovienax]

general question (no, i don't want to know a specific source):

is there still a grey market for ghb in europe? or is it even legally available in some countries?

i vaguely remember that you could buy it legally in switzerland a couple of years ago...but i don't have a clue about the current situation

..in the uk?

...in germany?

does anyone know the legal situation of ghb in europe, or parts of europe?

 

[synchrojet]

Green Kamut is an alkaline forming food. Generally, transfatty acids and sugars result in acidity. I use about four ounces of Green Kamut daily.

Its wheatgrass.

 

[bongbudda]

GHB in the UK is still technicaly legal, if you only have it for your own use and dont make it.
However all the sites that sell it have been closed down and there is virtualy no decent suppliers left.
GBL is widely sold by chemical wholesalers, but then its nasty stuff so why would you want to.

 

[Torch]

Re: Smart Arse Internet Junkies

Very valuable response, Jit

We can't put up with a couple of sentences in capitol letters can we?

We should all conform to the constraints of grammar and the english language and capitolize the first letter of every proper noun and the first letter of each sentence ONLY.

For fucks sake, I'd assume that a forum full of drug users (who have presumably to some extent expanded their minds) would have a fairly OPEN-minded view of online conversation and not be so nit-picking and pedantic that they make fun of someone for the improper use of capitolizing letters.

Get a life and stop giving internet users a bad name with your i-use-the-internet-all-the-time-so-i-know-how-you're-SUPPOSED-to-chat-and-if-you-don't-ill-make-you-look-like-an-idiot-because-i-have-nothing-better-to-do-than-correct-harmless-positive-posts-with-attemptedly-witty-responses-that-end-up-sounding-like-the-kind-of-dialogue-written-for-the-comic-book-store-owner-in-the-simpsons...

He doesn't know how to use the Caps Lock button...

Heee hee hee.

Ergh.


I believe the spelling is 'capital'
Note: this is not a response only for Just in Time. It's for all the other jits out there. You know who you are.

edit

 

[Partykid12]

GBL is widely sold by chemical wholesalers, but then its nasty stuff so why would you want to.

Because it's still good and if you can manage to drink something that tastes like shit really quick it is well worth it...

 

[Black Panther]

Constant ingestion of a -diol will result in liver damage, first off.(...)

... so does ethyl alcochol...
demonized again, like always...
Nice article anyway, but to much hard word used.

 

[synchrojet]

Demonized? Article? The post was from personal experience, actually.

Let me dumb it down a bit, then.

Friends took it for a while without anything else and got jaundice. Tests revealed bilirubin levels above 3. GGT levels were also elevated, and that is the proof in the pudding for liver damage right there. ALK PHOS, ALT, etc. can get elevated from things like weight training, which my friends and I all do, so we look for the GGT and bilirubin for information.

Of course the yellow eyes were a dead giveaway...and the ALT over 600 sort of got our attention...

(Juuuust a TAD more toxic than alcohol, there)

When they stopped the 1,4...the levels returned to normal.

Demonized or dangerous? Your decision, its your liver. I'm no scientist, and certainly no doctor. Just a user with common sense, I suppose.

Anyway, I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[Black Panther]

Demonized? Article? The post was from personal experience, actually.

Yes I know, but you managed to wrote nice article anyway

Let me dumb it down a bit, then.

Friends took it for a while without anything else and got jaundice. Tests revealed bilirubin levels above 3. GGT levels were also elevated, and that is the proof in the pudding for liver damage right there. ALK PHOS, ALT, etc. can get elevated from things like weight training, which my friends and I all do, so we look for the GGT and bilirubin for information.

Of course the yellow eyes were a dead giveaway...and the ALT over 600 sort of got our attention...

(Juuuust a TAD more toxic than alcohol, there)

"Without anything else"... as you wrote...
Do you have any friend which drinks 40% alc without anything else on empty stomach??
I want to give you easiest examples, how you demonize it. It's just irresponsible or rather stupid.
Sorry now I read what you wrote again, and don't know if I understand it right, anyway...
I just want to point out, that if you drink 2.5ml 14bdo twice a week, nothing wrongs happen. It's like with alcohol, if you drank two beers nothing happens, but if you gone for a bing for a week with alcohol, it will hurt you.
- I have a friends who drank 99% 1,4bdo constantly for a years, once a week and nothing bad happens.
- On other side I have a friend which drank 5ml in one shoot, and don't wont to try it again.
This is what I wanna try to say.

 

[synchrojet]

I see your point now. I agree. It's true that a couple of ml of 1,4 every few days will not harm you. The trouble is that most people find that if they have enough 1,4 on hand, they will dose much more often than that as time goes on.

1,4 does have a strong habituation potential, as does GHB and GBL, even if they are not physically addictive.

When I have GHB (which of course I do not) I do it every day, several times a day, but I keep my awareness level elevated so as to avoid the possible pitfalls associated with habitual use. I know my body and my limits, which are probably different from others.

I could not possibly dose 1,4 at the rate that I would GHB because at that rate liver damage would occur. With GHB, liver damage is not a consideration, regardless (provided it is the proper pH!!)

 

[Gaz_hmmmm]

Green Kamut is an alkaline forming food. Generally, transfatty acids and sugars result in acidity. I use about four ounces of Green Kamut daily.

Its wheatgrass.

Where can I can wheatgrass? Is it a drink, actual grass type stuff, herbal pills?

Would drinking lots of milk stop acidosis?

 

[Harry@Piekarnia]

GHB in the UK is still technicaly legal, if you only have it for your own use and dont make it.
However all the sites that sell it have been closed down and there is virtualy no decent suppliers left.

Not quite true. The site I've been using for the last four years is still up and running. Or maybe that's what you meant with the 'virtually'.

GBL is widely sold by chemical wholesalers, but then its nasty stuff so why would you want to.

Mainly because it is a piece of piss to convert it to GHB. Only need one other chemical and then it is shake to mix it. Then just check the ph and adjust if you need to. I'm thinking hard about getting myself a 55 gallon drum to put to one side in case there is further action against GHB....

Harry