empeebee
Bluelighter
Hi all,
Abstract
There are a truck-load of methods and process on the 'net about performing Cold Water Extraction (CWE) to get codeine out of Over-The-Counter (OTC) pills as bought from the local pharmacy/chemist. Many methods are slightly different causing the expected questions. "How much water should I use per pill?", "Should I use boiling water/luke-warm water/tap water/chilled water to dissolve the pills ?", "Can I use a t-shirt/muslin cloth/chamois/coffee filter/a sock/my underpants as a filter", "How clear should the final product be - is it OK if it is a little cloudy?" etc. etc.
The point of this post is to apply a little science to CWE. I would like to try and keep this as simple as possible and not use a whole bunch of sciencey words so, for the chemistry pro's reading this, I may be over-simplifying in some/many cases (please forgive me).
Also, in the interests of harm reduction, hopefully bringing an end to the ongoing debate of whose method is better, reducing the flame-wars and preventing more people from ruining their socks, t-shirts and boxer shorts, I thought there might be one or two folk who like to wrap a little science around the theories and debates.
This post IS NOT going to tell you how you should perform a CWE, so if you're looking for yet another method please move on, or go straight to the academic study links at the end of this post, otherwise nothing to see here.
The below contains a bit of background to the principles behind a CWE as well as a harm reduction bit. Feel free to ignore that part and scroll straight on down to the sciencey bit.
**Disclaimer - I am neither a medical professional, chemist, pharmacist nor do I work in a lab. Just your average Joe who has spent quite a while researching this topic and would like to pass on what I have learnt**
TL;DR/WR?
Codeine is an opiate. Take enough of the stuff and you may feel all chilled out, relaxed, perhaps a little euphoric and have a lovely nod but, unless you have been prescribed unblended codeine pills by your doctor or getting them from your source, you may be buying your codeine mixed in with APAP, ASA or IBP from your local chemist/pharmacy. There are numerous methods, postulations & theories on the processes of extracting codeine from OTC pain relievers using CWE. This very forum has megathreads on the methods used by various individuals with reports of varying success and final yields, as does Erowid, PsychonautWiki, and many others (I have even seen a method on Quora...)
OK, the basic principles of a codeine CWE are that you drop a bunch of pills in a glass of water. You could leave them to dissolve, you could stir or shake of them until dissolved (not a great idea unless you are monitoring the rise in temperature caused by the stirring or shaking, but it does speed up the process) or you could crush them up and then dissolve the powder (the finer the powder the better apparently). Filter the mix and drink the filtered fluid. Do not eat the gunk (the APAP/IBP/ASA, fillers, binders, etc.) left in the filter !
The reason a CWE is suggested to be safer is that the amount of APAP/IBP/ASA you would otherwise take alongside your daily fix of codeine could be highly toxic in significant quantities resulting in either immediate or long-term poisoning leading to major internal organ issues. You can do your own research on the toxic effects of APAP, ASA & IBP.
The Harm Reduction Bit
The current thinking is that the maximum "safe" daily dose over 24 hours of:-
APAP is 4 grams (4,000mg) - https://www.medscape.com/answers/82...sages-of-acetaminophen-in-adults-and-children
ASA is 4 grams (4,000mg) - https://bnf.nice.org.uk/drug/aspirin.html
IBP is 2.4 grams (2,400mg) - https://www.fda.gov/media/112979/download
Codeine is 360 mg in 24 hours - https://www.drugs.com/dosage/codeine.html
So, if you're planning on getting your codeine fix where the the total amount of APAP/IBP/ASA taken with the codeine over a 24 hour period is less that the "safe" doses above, you don't really need to do a CWE (though it is still safer than taking the pills unextracted).
I do not intend to be a scare-monger or try and frighten you away from codeine or CWE but you gotta know what could happen so that the rewards justify the risk. You're gonna do what you're gonna do, at least understand the possible consequences...
Codeine is a central nervous system (CNS) depressant. Nervous system depression has the affect that your breathing rate slows down and that your breaths become shallower. Carbon dioxide builds up in your blood, known as hypercapnia or hypercarbia, because not enough oxygen is processed by your lungs and not enough carbon dioxide is being removed. Low levels of oxygen in blood (hypoxemia) and abnormally low oxygen content in tissues/organs (hypoxia) also happens. This starts getting serious as it could lead to your heart starting to beat erratically (arrythmia) where your heart doesn't beat to a regular rhythm possibly ending in a full blown heart attack. Unless you receive urgent medical attention, result = Dead.
Also, without enough oxygen and too much carbon dioxide going into your brain you may fall into a coma or become unconscious. Should this happen without you getting urgent medical attention while still not being able to breathe properly, there is a high chance that you may suffer irreversible, permanent brain damage leaving you a drooling, wheel-chair bound invalid living in a residential nursing home for the rest of your life. In severe cases, too much codeine, or even a modest amount of codeine mixed with other CNS substances could lead to you to completely stop breathing/heart attack/brain death. Result = Dead.
There are less serious side effects such as, but not limited to, nausea, vomiting, being itchy as all hell, headaches or migraines, being unable to have a piss, constipation, diarrhea and all those lovely things that come with substance abuse but there are counter-measures to make these lesser side-effects not quite so bad (do your own research).
So, you should not take any other drugs that affect the central nervous system (alcohol is a drug that affects the CNS as are many OTC anti-histamines & sleeping pills) with your codeine extract unless you have a someone with you, sometimes called a trip sitter, armed with Naloxone and who knows how to use it. Basically if the patient information leaflet contains the word 'drowsy' do not mix it with codeine. You may have a good idea of what your doing but even users with years of experience get caught out occasionally (have a scroll through some of the OD threads).
The Sciencey Bit
Why you should use a good filter. The smaller the microns (μm) -i.e. the pore size- of the filter the more particles it can hold back, i.e. a 5 μm filter will filter out more of the unwanted material than a 10 μm filter but may also filter out more of the desired product. A coffee filter is roughly 10-20 μm. Lab grade filters go down to fractions of a micron. Your Nike socks are not a good filter, neither are your Calvin Klein underpants.
Why does a CWE work? Codeine dissolves more easily in water than APAP, ASA or IBP, in other words it is more 'soluble'. This means that with a given number of pills dissolved in a given amount of water, more codeine will dissolve than the other gunk the codeine has been bound with.
So, four things to note. 1) The scientific community seem to borrow each other's findings. 2) The cooler the water the less gunk dissolves - that's why it is called COLD Water Extraction. 3) Halving the temperature of the liquid does not halve the amount that dissolves. 4) The more water you use per filtration the more gunk will dissolve.
It is a guess that the above results differ from each other due to differing testing methods.
You can do your own math to figure out how much APAP/ASA/IBP will be in your final product along with the desired amount of codeine. Please try stay below the maximum "safe" daily recommended dose unless you enjoy being pumped full of activated charcoal and having breathing tubes pushed down your throat.
You may then ask "OK, this is great but have these methods and science actually been tested properly? Like in a lab with Gas chromatography n beakers n vials n pipettes n Bunsen burners n stuff ?". Glad you asked because yes they have, although the yields did not exactly match what would be expected from the above solubility table. The important part of the below-linked study:
"LC–MS/MS showed recoveries of the total amounts of codeine in tampering products of 81–84% from Product 1 (codeine/acetylsalicylic acid); 61–67% from Product 2 (codeine/ibuprofen); and 42–71% from Product 3 (codeine/paracetamol). Recoveries of non-opioid analgesics ranged between: 57–73% acetylsalicylic acid; 5.5–8.5% ibuprofen, and 5.0–9.2% paracetamol". LC-MS means Liquid chromatography–mass spectrometry.
I recommend you read, and I mean actually read the whole thing, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5130903/, also available as a PDF https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/files/53205356/art_3A10.1007_2Fs40122_016_0053_2.pdf. Agree this was a once-off test though it does refer to another test (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12908809/) but I cannot access the referred report.
Thanks for reading.
./empeebee
P.S. Comments welcome, please be nice though, I said above that I am not a scientist, chemist or pharmacist
P.P.S. More than happy to edit this post if I have misinterpreted any of the linked articles
P.P.P.S. Please add any academic studies you have come across or you have conducted using the scientific method (weighing how much gunk you have left in your filter against a starting quantity is not considered a "scientific method")
P.P.P.P.S. Please take this post as a work-in-progress and open to correction
Abstract
There are a truck-load of methods and process on the 'net about performing Cold Water Extraction (CWE) to get codeine out of Over-The-Counter (OTC) pills as bought from the local pharmacy/chemist. Many methods are slightly different causing the expected questions. "How much water should I use per pill?", "Should I use boiling water/luke-warm water/tap water/chilled water to dissolve the pills ?", "Can I use a t-shirt/muslin cloth/chamois/coffee filter/a sock/my underpants as a filter", "How clear should the final product be - is it OK if it is a little cloudy?" etc. etc.
The point of this post is to apply a little science to CWE. I would like to try and keep this as simple as possible and not use a whole bunch of sciencey words so, for the chemistry pro's reading this, I may be over-simplifying in some/many cases (please forgive me).
Also, in the interests of harm reduction, hopefully bringing an end to the ongoing debate of whose method is better, reducing the flame-wars and preventing more people from ruining their socks, t-shirts and boxer shorts, I thought there might be one or two folk who like to wrap a little science around the theories and debates.
This post IS NOT going to tell you how you should perform a CWE, so if you're looking for yet another method please move on, or go straight to the academic study links at the end of this post, otherwise nothing to see here.
The below contains a bit of background to the principles behind a CWE as well as a harm reduction bit. Feel free to ignore that part and scroll straight on down to the sciencey bit.
**Disclaimer - I am neither a medical professional, chemist, pharmacist nor do I work in a lab. Just your average Joe who has spent quite a while researching this topic and would like to pass on what I have learnt**
TL;DR/WR?
- Use as little water as possible. 200 mL is too much, 100 mL per filtration is plenty, 50 mL is better & 30 mL is even better (especially for APAP)
- Keep your water as cold as possible. Putting your tap water in a fridge set at 41°F (5°C) for 30 minutes will cool it down plenty. 100 mL water at 100°C cools to 29°C in 1 hour in an ambient temperature of 23°C (http://jwilson.coe.uga.edu/EMAT6680Fa2014/Gieseking/Exploration 12/Newton's Law of Cooling.htm)
- Use a good filter (your t-shirt is not a good filter...)
Codeine is an opiate. Take enough of the stuff and you may feel all chilled out, relaxed, perhaps a little euphoric and have a lovely nod but, unless you have been prescribed unblended codeine pills by your doctor or getting them from your source, you may be buying your codeine mixed in with APAP, ASA or IBP from your local chemist/pharmacy. There are numerous methods, postulations & theories on the processes of extracting codeine from OTC pain relievers using CWE. This very forum has megathreads on the methods used by various individuals with reports of varying success and final yields, as does Erowid, PsychonautWiki, and many others (I have even seen a method on Quora...)
OK, the basic principles of a codeine CWE are that you drop a bunch of pills in a glass of water. You could leave them to dissolve, you could stir or shake of them until dissolved (not a great idea unless you are monitoring the rise in temperature caused by the stirring or shaking, but it does speed up the process) or you could crush them up and then dissolve the powder (the finer the powder the better apparently). Filter the mix and drink the filtered fluid. Do not eat the gunk (the APAP/IBP/ASA, fillers, binders, etc.) left in the filter !
The reason a CWE is suggested to be safer is that the amount of APAP/IBP/ASA you would otherwise take alongside your daily fix of codeine could be highly toxic in significant quantities resulting in either immediate or long-term poisoning leading to major internal organ issues. You can do your own research on the toxic effects of APAP, ASA & IBP.
The Harm Reduction Bit
The current thinking is that the maximum "safe" daily dose over 24 hours of:-
APAP is 4 grams (4,000mg) - https://www.medscape.com/answers/82...sages-of-acetaminophen-in-adults-and-children
ASA is 4 grams (4,000mg) - https://bnf.nice.org.uk/drug/aspirin.html
IBP is 2.4 grams (2,400mg) - https://www.fda.gov/media/112979/download
Codeine is 360 mg in 24 hours - https://www.drugs.com/dosage/codeine.html
So, if you're planning on getting your codeine fix where the the total amount of APAP/IBP/ASA taken with the codeine over a 24 hour period is less that the "safe" doses above, you don't really need to do a CWE (though it is still safer than taking the pills unextracted).
I do not intend to be a scare-monger or try and frighten you away from codeine or CWE but you gotta know what could happen so that the rewards justify the risk. You're gonna do what you're gonna do, at least understand the possible consequences...
Codeine is a central nervous system (CNS) depressant. Nervous system depression has the affect that your breathing rate slows down and that your breaths become shallower. Carbon dioxide builds up in your blood, known as hypercapnia or hypercarbia, because not enough oxygen is processed by your lungs and not enough carbon dioxide is being removed. Low levels of oxygen in blood (hypoxemia) and abnormally low oxygen content in tissues/organs (hypoxia) also happens. This starts getting serious as it could lead to your heart starting to beat erratically (arrythmia) where your heart doesn't beat to a regular rhythm possibly ending in a full blown heart attack. Unless you receive urgent medical attention, result = Dead.
Also, without enough oxygen and too much carbon dioxide going into your brain you may fall into a coma or become unconscious. Should this happen without you getting urgent medical attention while still not being able to breathe properly, there is a high chance that you may suffer irreversible, permanent brain damage leaving you a drooling, wheel-chair bound invalid living in a residential nursing home for the rest of your life. In severe cases, too much codeine, or even a modest amount of codeine mixed with other CNS substances could lead to you to completely stop breathing/heart attack/brain death. Result = Dead.
There are less serious side effects such as, but not limited to, nausea, vomiting, being itchy as all hell, headaches or migraines, being unable to have a piss, constipation, diarrhea and all those lovely things that come with substance abuse but there are counter-measures to make these lesser side-effects not quite so bad (do your own research).
So, you should not take any other drugs that affect the central nervous system (alcohol is a drug that affects the CNS as are many OTC anti-histamines & sleeping pills) with your codeine extract unless you have a someone with you, sometimes called a trip sitter, armed with Naloxone and who knows how to use it. Basically if the patient information leaflet contains the word 'drowsy' do not mix it with codeine. You may have a good idea of what your doing but even users with years of experience get caught out occasionally (have a scroll through some of the OD threads).
The Sciencey Bit
Why you should use a good filter. The smaller the microns (μm) -i.e. the pore size- of the filter the more particles it can hold back, i.e. a 5 μm filter will filter out more of the unwanted material than a 10 μm filter but may also filter out more of the desired product. A coffee filter is roughly 10-20 μm. Lab grade filters go down to fractions of a micron. Your Nike socks are not a good filter, neither are your Calvin Klein underpants.
- APAP particles range from 150 μm to 25 μm (https://echa.europa.eu/registration-dossier/-/registered-dossier/12532/4/6)*
- ASA particles range from 300 μm to 10 μm with most being ~100 μm to 200 μm (https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=11651)*
- IBP particles range from 100 μm to 1 μm averaging 28 μm to 50 μm (https://www.ijpsonline.com/articles...l-tablets-using-biopharmaceutical-classi.html)*
- Codeine Phosphate not found except for a BP powder where "not less than 90% w/w passes 250 micron, not less than 50% w/w passes 106 micron, not greater than 70% w/w passes 38 micron" (https://www.amphray.com/uploads/product/specs/27_specs.pdf). w/w means weight for weight or weight by weight. So 90%+ will go through a 250 μm filter, 50%+ will go through a 160 μm filter, 70% or less will go through a 38 μm filter. This seems contradictory to the academic studies linked at the end of the post but this article does not refer to the codeine being dissolved in liquid.
Why does a CWE work? Codeine dissolves more easily in water than APAP, ASA or IBP, in other words it is more 'soluble'. This means that with a given number of pills dissolved in a given amount of water, more codeine will dissolve than the other gunk the codeine has been bound with.
So, four things to note. 1) The scientific community seem to borrow each other's findings. 2) The cooler the water the less gunk dissolves - that's why it is called COLD Water Extraction. 3) Halving the temperature of the liquid does not halve the amount that dissolves. 4) The more water you use per filtration the more gunk will dissolve.
It is a guess that the above results differ from each other due to differing testing methods.
You can do your own math to figure out how much APAP/ASA/IBP will be in your final product along with the desired amount of codeine. Please try stay below the maximum "safe" daily recommended dose unless you enjoy being pumped full of activated charcoal and having breathing tubes pushed down your throat.
You may then ask "OK, this is great but have these methods and science actually been tested properly? Like in a lab with Gas chromatography n beakers n vials n pipettes n Bunsen burners n stuff ?". Glad you asked because yes they have, although the yields did not exactly match what would be expected from the above solubility table. The important part of the below-linked study:
"LC–MS/MS showed recoveries of the total amounts of codeine in tampering products of 81–84% from Product 1 (codeine/acetylsalicylic acid); 61–67% from Product 2 (codeine/ibuprofen); and 42–71% from Product 3 (codeine/paracetamol). Recoveries of non-opioid analgesics ranged between: 57–73% acetylsalicylic acid; 5.5–8.5% ibuprofen, and 5.0–9.2% paracetamol". LC-MS means Liquid chromatography–mass spectrometry.
I recommend you read, and I mean actually read the whole thing, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5130903/, also available as a PDF https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/files/53205356/art_3A10.1007_2Fs40122_016_0053_2.pdf. Agree this was a once-off test though it does refer to another test (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12908809/) but I cannot access the referred report.
Thanks for reading.
./empeebee
P.S. Comments welcome, please be nice though, I said above that I am not a scientist, chemist or pharmacist
P.P.S. More than happy to edit this post if I have misinterpreted any of the linked articles
P.P.P.S. Please add any academic studies you have come across or you have conducted using the scientific method (weighing how much gunk you have left in your filter against a starting quantity is not considered a "scientific method")
P.P.P.P.S. Please take this post as a work-in-progress and open to correction
