Opioids Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome and Depression?

[dokomo]

An excellent link was posted in this thread (props to logie), so we thought we'd make a thread to discuss EDS and see if anyone else with treatment resistant depression has heard of it/has experience with it.

This website discusses it: http://www.prohibitionkills.blogspot.com/

Symptoms from the site:

A) Hypersensitivity/sensory defensiveness- This could be hypersensitivity to touch, sound, light, temperature, etc. You're easily made uncomfortable by slight disturbances in your surroundings.
B) Weak immune system- You don't know of anyone who catches nasty colds as often as you do. Perhaps you were even diagnosed with an autoimmune condition or two. (Amazingly enough, whenever you’re on opiates/opioids, your immune system seems to drastically strengthen)
C) You've never in your life experienced the so-called 'runner's high'.
D) You're easy to bring to tears, or at least you were that way through your teenage years.
E) Pollen allergy/Hay fever- This often comes with a chronic runny nose and possibly other allergies as well.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

This concerns me as a future addictions counselor greatly - not AT ALL that I am denying its existence (in fact, based on those symptoms, it sounds exactly like a close friend of mine) but that people with opioid habits will use this to rationalize. The hardest part of treatment for most addiction professionals already is breaking through all the layers of rationalization people have built up and if someone believes they have a medical condition that necessitates/justifies their opioid (ab)use then it will be that much harder for them to get help.

 

[edarrin]

I'm sure the endorphins and enkephlins are involved in at least certain types of depression.

IMO enhancing natural levels makes way more sense as a sustainable state. TDic I think is a kappa inhibitor which may reach clinical use eventually.


Having spent many years on opiates I so not think they are a legitimate treatment for depression. If anything they'll cause it. Even prescribed.

Just my opinion but having been through both states it did not help me with depression. It did help me avoid life which is different.

 

[dokomo]

Good point cane. At least the only treatment isn't opioids though... the article mentions naltrexone as a treatment, but I'd try d-phenylalanine as a first course of treatment, to prevent the breakdown of natural endorphins.

 

[logie]

Thanks dokomo for creating this thread! I definitely do see the view where cane is coming from - and it certainly could easily be rationalized by addicts as their reason for using..

That being said, I've been on tons of SSRI's and other anti-depressants as well as anti-anxiety meds my whole life and not a single one has come close to the relief I get from opiates. I "chip" and do not get high - even 30mg mscontin plugged 1-2x daily can provide me the relief way better than effexor coupled with xanax could.

I do think naltrexone or as dokomo said d-phenylalanine would be a great first course to see if there is merit to this theory. But I definitely do understand how addicts rationalize and could see how this would never fly with a dr.

As for the thought that over time this would be less effective, due to tolerance - I've 'chipped' for 2-3 years now and still am just as well (depression wise) as when I first started my treatment. That being said, tolerance obviously does build. But I don't think 30-60mg daily of mscontin is too large a habit for 3 years of use.

I'd love to get some more discussion in here and see if anyone else has gone down this road for depression.

 

[haden]

Where I live there is a very good acupuncturist who works on a sliding scale. I phoned him and he knew exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned EDS, and I now have an appointment with him tomorrow that he insists should be free!

 

[FattyAcid]

Endorphine Deficiency ?Syndrome?

I, as well as a good number of people I have talked to about this, agree that there is a current "symptom" of the lives we live, and it's coming to be known as "endorphine deficiency syndrome"

Basically, I'm looking to drum up conversation on what other's more informed opinions on this may be....

For me, a tiny bit of exogenous morphine (or analog), and I'm a 100% more well socially adjusted, motivated, caring person. I have a history of addiction, although I wouldn't associate this with PAWS.

Anyone have any links or sources for information on the subject?

From what I can find, it's akin to what we diagnose and treat as a dopamine deficiency, ala ADD. It's caused by many factors, including ones emotional/mental health history, as well as substance history (although I equate this with a person prescribed to ADD med's, of course you'll be more focused, you're on amphetamines!)

Any one have any advice on treatment besides A. Opiates B. "Runners High" situations, both of which are known to relieve the symptoms...

Mods, if this is in the wrong forum, sorry....I like the frequenter's of the OD forum, seem like the best target audience

 

[dokomo]

^I thought I'd merge your post with this previous thread. Very interesting topic!

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^good call with the merge and this certainly is an interesting topic.

After reading your post, Mr. Acid (or would you prefer I call you fatty ) I worry about rationalization as I mentioned above in the previous post on this topic which you can now see above.

As you basically said, OF COURSE you're going to feel better after taking a little morphine... its MORPHINE. It makes me wonder if subconsciously you're looking for a way to rationalize you're use.

Even if you have this hypothetical condition, as someone who has experienced addiction, do you think self-medicating with opioids is the best option?

Good point cane. At least the only treatment isn't opioids though... the article mentions naltrexone as a treatment, but I'd try d-phenylalanine as a first course of treatment, to prevent the breakdown of natural endorphins.

 

[FattyAcid]

not at all, in fact, was kind of fishing for other treatments

 

[Cane2theLeft]

Dokomo - can you tell us more about your suggestion of d-phenylalanine and why it might be a good option?

 

[JamtasticX]

^good call with the merge and this certainly is an interesting topic.

After reading your post, Mr. Acid (or would you prefer I call you fatty ) I worry about rationalization as I mentioned above in the previous post on this topic which you can now see above.

I would agree with your concerns.

True, I have been addicted to opiates and am on suboxone, however, I still worry about things such as PAWS. From personal experience I find that if you give someone an excuse, or a rationalisation, they will latch onto that. I believe a big reason people struggle with recovery is because they build up this huge, irrational fear of being sick, and talk themselves into believing that their life will be horrible, and they'll suffer through paws forever, and therefore rationalise their own continued use.

 

[DustnRoses]

With things like this, the phrase 'ignorance is bliss' comes to mind. Seeing as to how the only people who would ever be looking into EDS or interested in it are addicts or former addicts, if there is truth to it, that's an awfully big cloud to have hanging over your head.

 

[dokomo]

Dokomo - can you tell us more about your suggestion of d-phenylalanine and why it might be a good option?

Certainly.

The body makes its own endogenous opioids (generally called endorphins, enkephalins, and dynorphins.) Each has a function in the brain/body, and in order to maintain a proper concentration, the body has enzymes responsible for breaking these molecules down and making then inactive.

One of those enzymes is carboxypepsidase-a, which is excreted by the pancreas and is responsible for endorphin degradation.

D or DL-phenylalanine, however, blocks the activation of this enzyme which will then result in a higher enkephalin concentration. This potentially therapeutic for people who have naturally low enkephalin levels. Interestingly, DL-phenylalanine may also have some anti-depressant effects via dopamine and NDMA (as it is a precursor to the synthesis of both of these.

If you're thinking of trying this supplement, please remember to buy D- or DL-phenylalanine only. L-phenylalanine is useless for this purpose, as it is an inactive enantiomer.

 

[zigzagger]

If this is actually a real thing, I totally have it. The reason I love opiates so much is because they make me feel "normal". But hey, maybe we are just rationalizing?

 

[BarbCat]

I hope this thread is still happening. I am sure I have a dopamine/low endorphan problem. I have anxious depression, PTSD and panic disorder and have been on every psych med known to mankind and nothing helps except some kind of opioid. Currently, I take Kratom at 5-10mg a day and worry about addiction. But it is the ONLY thing that helps and allows me function past the ragged jagged horrible feeling I live with eternally. D-L phenalalynine did not help but made me more anxious. What is going on here? I'll continue to take Kratom till the cows come home if it allows me to function, but there's got to be something less worrisome. And exercise and the rest of the boosting endorphan suggestions? Nada, nada, nada.