Does anyone know if usage of stims permanently affect your personality or ability to feel pleasure? I've read that it causes permanent damage to dopamine systems, and I Was wondering if this translates to permanent withdrawal symptoms.
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drug usage and personality
- Thread starter uacvax
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MDPVagrant
Bluelighter
IMO it would depend on the stim... nothing is (necessarily) permanent without some sort of physical brain damage.
I believe methamphetamine is proven to be neurotoxic, and I've seen a lot of debate about cocaine. Dunno about any others.
P.S. permanent damage to the brain's dopamine systems wouldn't necessarily translate to permanent withdrawal symptoms, e.g. it could cause symptoms similar to parkinson's disease without any effects on personality or ability to feel pleasure. Probably depends which neurons are damaged where.
I believe methamphetamine is proven to be neurotoxic, and I've seen a lot of debate about cocaine. Dunno about any others.
P.S. permanent damage to the brain's dopamine systems wouldn't necessarily translate to permanent withdrawal symptoms, e.g. it could cause symptoms similar to parkinson's disease without any effects on personality or ability to feel pleasure. Probably depends which neurons are damaged where.
MDPVagrant
Bluelighter
Doubt it... schizophrenia is related to having *too much* dopamine around, at least in theory... it's likely any such symptoms would go away once a person stopped using the stim that was causing it.Doooofus said:
most stimulants cause long term sensitisation to dopamine so called reverse tolerance, for example methamphetamine, methiphenidate (ritalin) or cocaine primes the brain long term, and makes those exposed more likely to use and more sensitive to stimulants in the long term.
There is also some evidence that this long term sensitisation means that the normal reward pathways are more effective and so drive for other dopaminergic peasures like sex or food is reduced, it takes less stimulation to reach the earlier levels of reward.
The link between stimulants or indeed any drug and schizophrenia suffers from the cause and effect problem, Are those people who are schizophrenic or would become schizophrenic more likely to be drawn to drug use? or is the drug causing schizophrenia. for certain excessive use of meth, coke and other stimulants an produce short term effects which are very very much like paranoid schizophrenia or similar psychosis, these usually go away once use is stopped but in some it persists, though would they have become schizophrenic anyway???
however like everything, use in moderation and there are unlikely to be problems. but how many use coke or meth or amp in moderation?
Maybe we will see in the next 30 years what the effects are, the adhd ritalinos will grow up and then become raging lunatics or not. (I am more concerned about ritalin because it is being given to young people whose brains are not fully developed and so would probably more plastic and effected by it. Then again the brain being more plastic might adapt more easily and so it is the adults who are fucked???)
I suspect not a lot will appear, sweden, japan and other countries have have had epidemic stimulant abuse in the past and nothing major seems to have come of it.
V
There is also some evidence that this long term sensitisation means that the normal reward pathways are more effective and so drive for other dopaminergic peasures like sex or food is reduced, it takes less stimulation to reach the earlier levels of reward.
The link between stimulants or indeed any drug and schizophrenia suffers from the cause and effect problem, Are those people who are schizophrenic or would become schizophrenic more likely to be drawn to drug use? or is the drug causing schizophrenia. for certain excessive use of meth, coke and other stimulants an produce short term effects which are very very much like paranoid schizophrenia or similar psychosis, these usually go away once use is stopped but in some it persists, though would they have become schizophrenic anyway???
however like everything, use in moderation and there are unlikely to be problems. but how many use coke or meth or amp in moderation?
Maybe we will see in the next 30 years what the effects are, the adhd ritalinos will grow up and then become raging lunatics or not. (I am more concerned about ritalin because it is being given to young people whose brains are not fully developed and so would probably more plastic and effected by it. Then again the brain being more plastic might adapt more easily and so it is the adults who are fucked???)
I suspect not a lot will appear, sweden, japan and other countries have have had epidemic stimulant abuse in the past and nothing major seems to have come of it.
V
MattPsy
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2006
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- 1,616
Well, i'd expect that messing with neurochemistry when young is especially bad as it's been shown that activation of various receptors (i'm not taking about any on in particular, just in general) affects the expression of genes and so if the brain is still developing, the expression of these genes is gonna matter a whole lot more since they will affect the further development. Or so it would seem, though I still have a lot more to learn (18yo student), maybe too much of a simplification!
Excessive stimulant use can reduce the abillity for the body to feel pleasure since the activity of receptors is so downregulated after big periods of overexcitation... so things that shoudl normally give us pleasure just do, well, nothing - leading to this: "I know this should be enjoyable... but I feel nothing at all!"
As I understand it though this is mostly reversible.
Excessive stimulant use can reduce the abillity for the body to feel pleasure since the activity of receptors is so downregulated after big periods of overexcitation... so things that shoudl normally give us pleasure just do, well, nothing - leading to this: "I know this should be enjoyable... but I feel nothing at all!"
As I understand it though this is mostly reversible.
Alfajagdflieger
Bluelighter
Is much of the damage associated with long periods of stimulant use (especially cocaine) capable of healing? I am most interested in information about damage to dopamine receptors associated with cocaine use.
there is no real evidence of 'damage' to dopamine receptors caused by cocaine. there is also very limited evidence that it damages the dopamine neurons either. METH on the other hand does damage and destroy dopamine neurons at recreational doses.
Sure There are changes to the brain caused by long term exposure to cocaine and other stimulants, there are, I am sure similar changes induced by finding religion or by falling in love. is this damage???
Most of these changes fall under the broad category of tolerance
Reverse tolerance vs short term tolerance
Short term tolerance: the dose required to get effects will increase with regular use, the dose required to get effects will increase with regular use. this kind of tolerance goes away if you abstain from stimulants for a couple of weeks. this kind of tolerance is caused by the down regulation of receptor genes increased transporterproduction and the depletion of the precursors to dopamine any many other things.
Reverse tolerance is the kind of tolerance which is long term, there has been a lot of the discussion about the supposed ability of ketamine and other NMDA antagonists to prevent reverse tolerance is the increased sensitivity to stimulants found in those who have used them. (most of the studies are rat studies so how valid this is with humans who knows)
reverse tolerance seems to involve a subtle rewiring of the brain.
Evidence strongly suggests NMDA antagonists do not reduce short term tolerance, they reduce long term 'reverse tolerance'(prevent the brain from learning to become more sensitive to stimulants).
Sure There are changes to the brain caused by long term exposure to cocaine and other stimulants, there are, I am sure similar changes induced by finding religion or by falling in love. is this damage???
Most of these changes fall under the broad category of tolerance
Reverse tolerance vs short term tolerance
Short term tolerance: the dose required to get effects will increase with regular use, the dose required to get effects will increase with regular use. this kind of tolerance goes away if you abstain from stimulants for a couple of weeks. this kind of tolerance is caused by the down regulation of receptor genes increased transporterproduction and the depletion of the precursors to dopamine any many other things.
Reverse tolerance is the kind of tolerance which is long term, there has been a lot of the discussion about the supposed ability of ketamine and other NMDA antagonists to prevent reverse tolerance is the increased sensitivity to stimulants found in those who have used them. (most of the studies are rat studies so how valid this is with humans who knows)
reverse tolerance seems to involve a subtle rewiring of the brain.
Evidence strongly suggests NMDA antagonists do not reduce short term tolerance, they reduce long term 'reverse tolerance'(prevent the brain from learning to become more sensitive to stimulants).
fastandbulbous
Bluelight Crew
If it's there, there'a a likelyhood that using stimulants will unmask it. Stimulants do cause symptoms characteristic of paranoid schizophrenia; if it's latent in you, anything can act as a trigger (traumatic incident, drugs etc).
Basically, if there's a history in your family (of schizophrenia)and you decide to take stimulants, you might not be the same person after using them. That also applies to psychedelics, dissociatives & cannabinoids. You have to do the risk/benefit asssessment for yourself...
Can using these classes of drugs trigger schizophrenia? Yes, but only latent illnesses result in long term psychosis. Most people recover once the drug is removed from their system
Is it likely I'll be one of those people who lose the plot after using them? Look at your family history. If you have schizophrenic relatives, your chances might be higher than average, but no-one can be certain. Latent psychiatric illnesses triggered by drugs is a known cause, but latent = hidden, so you can only make a guesstimate.
Some drugs do cause neurotoxicity eg meth, PCP (some such as MDMA only seem to cause it with raised body temp or other specific criteria).
Overall, you have to ask yourself if you think you're one of the 'at risk' people. If so, do you think it's worth it?
Thing is, that's how a lot of life operates, you make a decision, act on it and there are consequences. Sometimes they are irreversible, so you should find out as much as you think you need before making such a descision (I'd love to be able to grow another left hand - like a salamander - but I know I can't, so I have to live with it).
[/ketamine rant!]
PS If you're doing coke, it's not your brain you need to worry about, it's your heart
Basically, if there's a history in your family (of schizophrenia)and you decide to take stimulants, you might not be the same person after using them. That also applies to psychedelics, dissociatives & cannabinoids. You have to do the risk/benefit asssessment for yourself...
Can using these classes of drugs trigger schizophrenia? Yes, but only latent illnesses result in long term psychosis. Most people recover once the drug is removed from their system
Is it likely I'll be one of those people who lose the plot after using them? Look at your family history. If you have schizophrenic relatives, your chances might be higher than average, but no-one can be certain. Latent psychiatric illnesses triggered by drugs is a known cause, but latent = hidden, so you can only make a guesstimate.
Some drugs do cause neurotoxicity eg meth, PCP (some such as MDMA only seem to cause it with raised body temp or other specific criteria).
Overall, you have to ask yourself if you think you're one of the 'at risk' people. If so, do you think it's worth it?
Thing is, that's how a lot of life operates, you make a decision, act on it and there are consequences. Sometimes they are irreversible, so you should find out as much as you think you need before making such a descision (I'd love to be able to grow another left hand - like a salamander - but I know I can't, so I have to live with it).
[/ketamine rant!]
PS If you're doing coke, it's not your brain you need to worry about, it's your heart
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
wise words of wisdom, Oh Master-who-longs-to-be-a-salamander
fastandbulbous
Bluelight Crew
On reflection, quite coherent for just having come out of a k-hole!
wiseco sponsore
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2007
- Messages
- 56
Well, i've lost alot of emotion. I'm always stern faced and don't laugh nearly as much as I used to.
I snap out on anyone. Some have a short fuse, I have no fuse.
After using so much for so long, I even look/feel twisted even if I have no dope. Always moving and talking fast.
I have shunned some friends. You see who your real friends are when you start doing dope with them. I spend all my time collecting boxes and sitting over a smelly ass pitcher.
I snap out on anyone. Some have a short fuse, I have no fuse.
After using so much for so long, I even look/feel twisted even if I have no dope. Always moving and talking fast.
I have shunned some friends. You see who your real friends are when you start doing dope with them. I spend all my time collecting boxes and sitting over a smelly ass pitcher.
cixelsyd
Bluelighter
MDPVagrant said:
ya that and other things as well... they've also found traces of DMT, 5-Meo-DMT
and bufetonin (spelling :/ im very high) in schizophrenics urine, so they think that their brains just produce large amounts of mind altering chemicals that are released uncontrolably... i don't remember exactly where i read it but im sure you can look it up