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Drug laws in Holland

stinky

Bluelighter
Joined
Jul 9, 2001
Messages
84
Location
slc, ut, usa
I am not sure if this belongs in legality issues or not because it says that that form is for mdma related issues. Any how, I am wondering if all drugs are legally sold in stores in Holland. I have heard that this is how you buy marijuana and mushrooms but are there opiate stores, cocain stores etc., or do you buy these drugs off of the street? If the latter is true, can you be arrested for these drugs?
peace
 
One can purchase cannabis and all varieties of shroom, even the mind blowing philosopher stones. Cannot ususally buy in the same stores though, 2 types: Canabis=coffeeshop. Shrooms, peyote, ayuasca, t7=smartshop. All shrooms here are grown on neutral mediums so guess what? They taste like normal mushrooms, no shit ass funk to them. I have heard that reciently heroin shops have begun to spring up. just shady lil places that junkies know sell the shit. this can only hurt the cannabis situation there. Any dutchies out there care to add a couple pennies? Also check this link: http://www.greyarea.nl/ga_main.html
Nice example of an american run shop, not the best however.
 
heroin is safer than marijuana so no that doesnt hurt the weed situation there, thats a step in the right direction! i am glad to hear they are available like that, heroin isnt evil any more than weed is evil, theyre about the same in terms of harm to the user and heroin is completely non toxic while i cant say that for weed definately.
So watch how you talk about it
wink.gif
its not bad at all. Im just guessing youve been fed all the stuff they say on tv and in drug education about heroin its not your fault unless you think its the work of the devil and its worse than any other drug.
In fact if these distribution systems for heroin there are distributing a controlled form that is very consistent in its purity or is in liquid form in ampoules or vials it could really completely prevent overdose or at least drop it to only idiots dieing and nobody making mistakes because they didnt know what they were taking.
I really think if your against heroin and have all those things like "its horrible" to say about it, you should do a little research on reputable sites NOT GOVERNMENT OR OTHER CRAP, or just try it, heroin is NO different than any other opiate and is about exactly the same as morphine which has been shown by medical professionals to be completely safe. I know of a surgeon who was dependant on morphine injections for over 60 years and he lived to be very old, had no health problems and lived a very nice happy and healthy life free from the problems of prohibition.
Go get yourself some opites, percocet, oxycontin, vicodin, morphine, dilaudid, numorphan, codeine (bleh), heroin, fentanyl, methadone, shit even pentazocine or nubain arent too bad, you will enjoy it even if you dont absolutely LOVE the shit, which you probably will.
Have fun and be safe bro.
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~The Recreational Pharmacist
Fuck Social, Screw you plur fucks, you dont need a forum for "ELMOvsTELLETUBBIES"
AIM: TheTripDoctor
 
Ok, this is the current situation around here (Holland):
- Marijuana/hasj can be bought in 'Coffeeshops', max. 5 gram per customer. They both costs about 4-6$ per gram. You can have 5 plants for your own purpose, but it's illegal to sell cannabis if you're not the owner of a coffeeshop.
- In smartshops you can buy shrooms/salvia/san pedro&peyote/phalaris/
ephedra and a whole lot of other stuff. You can also grow 'm yourself if you want and the supplies can be bought here too.
All the other drugs are just as illegal as in the US. Only people who're addicted to opiates can get methadon on a daily basis.
A lot of drugs are really hard to get around here (DMT, PCP, Meth are just about impossible to get). But MDMA is everywhere and don't cost shit (>100mg for about 4$). About 99% of all xtc-pills around here are HQ!
When you buy speed here, you mostly get 10-25% amphetamine. A gram (well, 100-250mg) goes for 8$-10$. Also really easy to get.
Also Coke($40 a gram) and GHB($10 a bottle(?)) are populair around here.
I think it isn't all bad around here...
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The mind is a labyrinth, ladies and gentlemen. A puzzle. And while the paths of the brain are clearly visible, its ways deceptively patterned, its destinations are unknown, its secrets still secrets. And, if we are honest, it is the lure of the labyrinth that draws us to our chosen field, to unlock those secrets. Others have been here before us and have left us signs, but we, as explorers of the mind, must devote our lives and energies to going further, to tread the unexplored corridors in the hope of finding ultimately...the final solution. We have to see, we have to know...!
 
Ayahuasca can be obtained from at least one shop in Rotterdam I know of containing DMT and harmaline........
 
Oh, I forgot to mention:
When they catch you with a gram of speed/coke or 1 or 2 xtc-pills, they just take it from you and maybe write down your name and stuff, further no consequences.
If they bust you for dealing, you go to jail (most of the time). Penalties may vary from 6 months to a couple of years.
I live in the south of Holland, and almost all of the xtc and speed is made in this area. Every few weeks the cops track down a xtc-lab, but you don't even notice it (never had any problem finding E's)
 
I was wondering if some learned person might be able to shed some light on aforementioned 'phalaris' substance? At this point it time i'm rather confused about it b/c the erowid FAQ starts talking just about DMT...but someone else in this thread mentioned DMT being hard to come by and illegal. Sorry for being as lazy as not wanting to research further, but whats the deal?
 
The Dutch drug laws are similar to any other country's laws, but they are interpreted much more loosely. Since there is much confusion on this topic, I will try to describe our laws and to be as verbose as possible.
The dutch drug law is called the "Opiumwet" [opium law]. Basically, we have two categories in our "Opiumlijst" [opium list]. The name dates way back to when the English' opium frenzy got a little out of hand...
We have "soft drugs" and "hard drugs". In the soft drugs category [Opiumlijst 2, or more commonly "lijst 2"], only the cannabis plant is listed. This applies to the natural product only; if you extract the d9-THC from a cannabis source, the product falls under list 1.
Then there is the hard drugs category [Opiumlijst 1], which contains all well-known substances. This list is updated regularly with analogues that are causing trouble. Substances that are kept underground (like 2C-T-7 and TMA-2) tend not to appear on any list.
Several substances are considered to have a medical application, or haven't yet been prevalent enough to warrant inclusion in the Opium lists. Among these are GHB, ketamine and amylnitrate (poppers). These mostly are still subject to medicine laws (comparable to the FDA's task field in America).
Except for cannabis, plants and fungi that grow in the area naturally, of which Stropharia cubensis [magic mushrooms] is the most famous, are not listed, and as such, not forbidden. Most interesting substances extracted from these (such as psilocybin, mescaline) ARE listed on list 1 however, and also dried mushrooms are considered an "extraction" and have been added to list 1. Discussion is currently spreading about new cannabis types which are modified to contain more THC; it is undecided whether this will be considered a list 1.
Formally, you are not allowed to possess any substance on any of the opium lists. You are allowed to keep medicines (GHB, ketamine), but you cannot sell them. You are allowed to keep any substance not on the list, and to sell them, as long as it is clear that they are not for ingestion (otherwise, food laws apply, which makes about everything you do a felony).
Netherlands spawned many "coffee shops" that carry cannabis products (weed, as well as prefab joints). Those products fall under list 2. Until a few years ago, when many coffeeshops were opened, their legal status was unclear. Technically list 2 products are illegal to possess or sell; but the government's attitude on these products is relaxed. Possession of small to medium quantities is never prosecuted or even frowned upon. In 2000, towns have been given room for defining rules to which coffee shops must comply; among the rules are maximum amounts (usually 500g) of hash per store at any occasion; maximum amounts (formerly 5g, now more loose) that are to be sold at once; no derived products (spacecake); admittance for 18+ with identification only; and no sale of alcohol. Setting these rules meant a de facto acknowledgement of possession and sale of small quantities, and this is considered a "semi-legal" status for coffee shops and users. Although the law still prohibits these activities, there have been several lawsuits with local authorities in which coffee shop owners were able to successfully defend their rights. Distribution of cannabis products is now an established field of business and in a few years, cannabis has become socially accepted throughout most parts of society.
Also on the virge of legality, many "smart shops" have been opened. While some smart shops stick to the natural stimulants and try to keep safe and stay away from psychoactives, most smart shops carry magic mushrooms; some sell peyote cacti and cannabis as well. As I mentioned before, the raw mushroom is not forbidden and it is perfectly legal to sell and possess it. Some shops have gotten into trouble by selling dried mushrooms (a derived product, thus falling under list 1), but as the mushroom hype is behind us, they are becoming more commonly available again. Smart shops, being often ran by psychedelic advocates, tend to take a "trial and error" approach to laws and will often try to establish a precedent rather than erring on the safe side of caution. Mushrooms have raised considerable media interest and are well-known; most young people will approach you with interest rather than judgement when you admit you take these.
While some smart shops prefer the image of "natural high provider" and make politically opportunistic statements about chemical drugs, most smart shops provide legal substances like 2C-T-7, TMA-2 and poppers too. GHB and ketamine have a bad track record of sending clueless users to the emergency room, and because those ARE illegal to sell, smart shops usually do not carry these (unless you get to know the owners better, then they can usually arrange for interesting things, but this is usually not part of their business plan).
Hard drugs like MDMA and methamphetamine are not sold at any legal shop; there are many large and smaller underground distribution networks; whether these are available to you depends on "friends" and contacts. Do not bother smart shop and coffee shop owners with questions about these drugs -- they are working hard to establish a "clean" image and generally do not want their name to be associated with hard drugs in any way.
Every major city in the Netherlands has a government-sponsored testing facility for pills. This is done under the DIMS [Drug Information and Monitoring System], and supposedly helps authorities in tracking pill quantities and quality. Recently, the DIMS has been effective in recognizing PMA, atropine and DXM pills being sold as ecstasy, and they have helped the community by spreading pamphlets and making press releases about pill types possibly containing atropine. (To the more conscious drug user, this is irrelevant, because you always should test your pills before eating them anyway, and with Netherlands' testing agencies, there is no single excuse for not doing it.)
Ofcourse, to most, this part of harm reduction is not more than a side effect -- the more interesting thing is you can have your pills lab analyzed for a small fee, usually from NLG5 [$2] to NLG25 [$10]. The drug information agencies supply users with decent information. Ofcourse they will not formally confirm any positive aspect of the drug experience; but they give good and accurate information on harm reduction without resorting to scare tactics.
The drug information agencies are all supported and watched by the government; most of them have a legal status which allows them to handle listed substances. Also a guideline has been set which prohibits local police from interfering with their clients.
Private soft drug use as well as hard drug use are generally condoned. People are not being harassed for possession of small quantities of listed substances; unless you get yourself in trouble, you won't have to worry too much about the authorities. [But you need to keep in mind this is common practice, not law.]
Trouble in this context usually means: when people complain about you. For instance, violence is a no-go, and when you are under the influence penalties will be much higher. Or if you bring large (10+) quantities of pills to a club and the bouncers don't like you; you could potentially be turned over to the police. This is not very dangerous if you have only a small amount of pills, meth or coke; but you will not get away with possession with intent to sell. Sometimes local authorities will give venue owners a hard time, especially when their club is implied in drug-induced casualties or distribution. This does not happen all too often, and generally authorities, promoters and club owners work together to cure these problems. [This occasionally leads to anti-drug statements by club owners, but by common sense, most of these statements are more political than realistic.]
Holland's attitude leads to a few guidelines:
* against openly use of hard drugs
* against distribution of hard drugs
* against distribution of pharmaceuticals
* against drug use by minors
* private, moderated, responsible use for hard drugs as well as soft drugs
The Netherlands are very nice to you as long as you abide by these unwritten rules. The laws for prosecuting you are available; but drug use alone is hardly ever reason for prosecution. This makes the Netherlands one of the most progressive and reasonable countries when it comes to drugs. You can have a life filled with beautiful drug experiences and do not have to worry about it. It would have been nice to have a fully legal basis for psychedelics, but the current situation is probably the best possible solution in the world of today.
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"In my world there are people in chains, and we can ride them like horses..."
Willow's Evil Twin - Buffy the Vampire Slayer
 
This thread is mainly for the trip doctor. Why do you have such a shitty defensive attitude? Dude heroin, in general, is viewed as BAD NEWs. Thats not my opinion, but hey look at the fuckin TV. Sure users and the like say oh yeah dude it is cool, but definately not in holland. They have a GREAT thing going there, and all heroin will do is fuck it up. It is a HARD drug. Like it or not a majority of people think it is evil. The same in europe. If other countries knew of heroin houses in the dam don't you think all the pot shit would be fucked too? I was not in anyway saying heroin is bad, god knows phreex railed me bout that earlier. Just that the whole scene in the netherlands is WAY too cool to be throwing heroin in the mix. Your constant defence of heroin shows us all one thing: adddict. So just fucking chill next time and understand the context of what I am saying. There has got to be some fellow dammers that agree with me. JEEZ! Sick of seeing your ass get so aggressive, its just drugs for gods sake.
laters
Bombay
 
this is off topic but in response to thetripdoctor's post:
I've usually found your posts to be rather informative and accurate. Your post above however makes me question your true knowledge. If you truly believe heroin (or virtually any opiate) is safer than marijuana then you really must do more research or stop kidding yourself. I'm trying to demonize herion or other opiates; they're all fine and dandy...BUT don't kid yourself into thinking they're harmless substances. The risk from overdosing on these substances is very real indeed. Locally, my region has seen a large number of deaths from overdoses in the last couple years...mostly due to increased purity (not contaminants). There is also a rather high risk of addiction for heroin and other opiates...don't kid yourself into thinking their isn't. If you can handle it without getting addicted, more power to you...that doesn't mean that the rest of the world is immune.
As for marijuana, not one person in recorded history has ever died from a marijuana overdose. Furthermore, marijuana has a very small risk of addiction (some heavy users can have mild addiction symptoms). Smoking causes lung damage for sure, but occasional use causes minimal damage, and, there are other methods of utilizing marijuana that do not present this damage.
To suggest that marijuana is even comparable to heroin is insidious.
Let's keep the posts reasonable here.
 
I don't think overdose is a problem of Heroin - that's a problem of prohibition of drugs. By handing control over to gangsters you drive the price up and purity down. You can't snort street heroin so you have to inject. You have no idea of the purity so overdose is now a factor.
Legalising heroin so people could get a pure source, just like thousands of ex-servicemen who were addicted during wars can get, means people can live healthy lives similar to a diabetic.
Pure Heroin by itself is less harmful than sugar. It is however addictive for some people.
Street heroin, mixed with brick dust and anything else they can find, is deadly.
 
No argument based on facts and figures can prove Peyote,K wrong there - we recently had a TV programme in the UK which said almost word for word the same thing. It included interviews with users, dealers and most importantly the doctors who prescribe diamorphine (heroin to you and I) to chronically ill people for (in some cases) 30 years or more with no measurable detrimental effects on mental processes or bodily functions. Interestingly the people who get their heroin from their doctor do not commit crime to pay for it and do not develop abscesses from injecting impure products and do not overdose from unexpectedly pure wraps which don't have the expected levels of filler/contaminents. It blew away my misconceptions (Government sponsered billboards used to say things like "HEROIN SCREWS YOU UP" - I didn't think they could get away with that if it wasn't true). Contaminated, massively marked-up heroin screws you up. Medical supplies of it will hook people and they will be addicts but they can live normal lives if politicians would only let them.
[This message has been edited by paddyboy (edited 25 July 2001).]
 
Don't get me wrong, you guys have some very valid points. However, there are a few things that are blaringly obvious:
1) Heroin depresses the respiratory system. When you take heroin (or other opiates) there is a risk of overdose. I agree, the government exaggerates these risks. However, this does not mean the risk is not there. And certainly this risk is much greater than that of marijuana (that is the main point I was getting at). Marijuana does NOT depress the respiratory sytem.
2) Frequent heroin use causes a tolerance. Users that take heroin for recreational purposes will then use increasing dosages which increase the risk of overdose.
We are in complete agreement that many of the harms of heroin use are caused by prohibition rather than the drug itself. We are also in agreement that legalization and quality control would significantly decrease the risk of heroin use. However, that in no way implies that heroin use does not have its risks. And, (once again my initial point that I was making) this in no way means that heroin is safer than marijuana (as thetripdoctor said). There is no comparison between the risks of marijuana and heroin. Marijuana does not cause acute death (the drug itself, not talking about potential contaminants). Heroin can cause acute death (the drug itself). Period.
 
quite right michael
bunt cake -no worries I wasn't making a comparison just an observation. I'm still surprised by it so I say it whenever I can.
 
Actually the program paddyboy mentions had a doctor saying it was very difficult to overdose on pure heroin. If you take 4 times as much as you meant to take all that will happen is you will fall asleep.
You basically need to inject a massively greater amount than you normally do to overdose.
 
If that's true (I wouldn't know...don't know shit about opiates) then how is it possible that heroine-overdoses do happen?
I can't imagine someone just taking 10 times as much as he does normally...and nobody is going to shoot it the first time, do they?
Just a question...
------------------
The mind is a labyrinth, ladies and gentlemen. A puzzle. And while the paths of the brain are clearly visible, its ways deceptively patterned, its destinations are unknown, its secrets still secrets. And, if we are honest, it is the lure of the labyrinth that draws us to our chosen field, to unlock those secrets. Others have been here before us and have left us signs, but we, as explorers of the mind, must devote our lives and energies to going further, to tread the unexplored corridors in the hope of finding ultimately...the final solution. We have to see, we have to know...!
 
That overdose figure is only true for PURE heroin (diacetylmorphine). The reason that there are still so many overdoses is because of the unreliability of the black market. A user doesn't get pharm quality heroin when he/she buys it off the street, they could get heroin that is 1% pure or 99% pure.
I do think that marijuana is harmful. I used it moderately to heavily for about a year and It has killed my motivation, made it even harder for me to run and my memory has been completely hammered. Marijuana is obviously not harmless and I am so pissed off that I fed into that tree hugging, hippy bullshit about its safety.
I think that skydancer should start a new faq about dutch drug laws, that was my main curiosity when I started drugs.
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We can't stop here, this is GreenlightEr country!
 
Kinetic_E,
Either you and I have extremely different views on health and personal safety or you're trying to rile me up.
When I referred to marijuana and heroin safety above, I was referring to their ability to cause immediate and irreparable harm to the user. Marijuana is not harmless, I already stated that above. But it is also NOT capable of killing a person outright as heroin is (unless you're counting the freak chance that you inhale a stem) . I am not talking about an annoying headache or some measely tar accumulating on the lungs, or your difficulty remembering where you placed your keys (to me these aren't as pressing health concerns as is my continuity breathing).
In any case, my argument is not that marijuana is harmless, nor is it that heroin is the devil's drug. I am simpling taking aim at stupid comments like "heroin is safer than marijuana".
I don't think this really needs further discussion. Anyone who wishes to debate this issue will only succeed in displaying their ignorance.
 
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