Don't jail addicts who shoplift from tempting displays, says chief judge (UK)

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fruitfly

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Drug addicts who commit non-violent offences should receive treatment in the community rather than short prison terms, England's most senior judge said yesterday.

Lord Phillips, the Lord Chief Justice, accepted that some people were unconvinced.

But, as he launched a pilot project at West London magistrates' court, Lord Phillips said he was confident that the scheme - and another in Leeds - would demonstrate that drug rehabilitation "really works".

For a "comparatively trivial" offence not involving violence - "helping oneself to somebody else's property, perhaps where that property is temptingly displayed in a self-service store" - the appropriate punishment would not keep the offender out of circulation for very long, if at all, he said.

"The sensible member of the public is likely to be concerned with two other objects of sentencing, the reduction of crime and the reform and rehabilitation of offenders."

Although drug addiction could be treated during a long spell in prison, this was simply not possible if a short sentence was imposed.

"The answer is obvious - or should be," Lord Phillips said. "Give them an appropriate community sentence, which should not be a soft option, and treat their addiction. Many on drugs are keen to get off. They need help."

Last month, Lord Phillips said muggers under 17 should be given community penalties rather than custody if they used only "minimal force" when committing robberies.

The offender's agreement is needed before a "drug rehabilitation requirement" is made part of a community sentence.

What is new is that the magistrates sentencing an offender will monitor his progress and provide continuity.

Lord Falconer, the Lord Chancellor, said at the launch yesterday that offenders would "see the same faces every time they come for reviews of their treatment order, creating a more informal atmosphere where the goals set in the drug treatment order are reviewed".

This was not a soft option, Lord Falconer insisted. "We want to get people off drugs and, therefore, off petty crime by targeting the reason people on drugs offend. Failure to complete the treatment will result in them being brought back before the court."

Turning Point, a charity set up to help people suffering from drug and alcohol problems, mental health issues and learning disabilities, welcomed the scheme.

Its chief executive, Lord Adebowale, said: "Turning Point has long called for the introduction of dedicated drug courts with specialist knowledge and expertise in tackling drug-related offending.

"The creation of drug courts with specialist staff will enable drug misusers access to the right help and treatment for their specific needs."
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Don't jail addicts who shoplift from tempting displays, says chief judge
By Joshua Rozenberg, Legal Editor, The Teleraph (UK)
(Filed: 14/12/2005)

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Sounds like a good idea. I wonder if they will implement any sort of "three strikes, you're out" policy, though. Repeat offenders should not get off so easy.
 
wow this is going to create a huge loophole in there judicial system.

the thinig is here, there are drug addicts and there are drug addicts that cant handle their shit so they go out and commit crimes. I dont think this will work.
 
I hope that addicts don't get the impression that they'll get pardoned just like that for their (actual) crimes. We responsible drug users need to be stern on this...
 
I think the idea of a separate drug court is absolutely brilliant - indicates drugs are a public health rather than a criminal issue. Drugs should most CERTAINLY not be an aggravating factor at sentencing, but I wouldn't like to see drugs being used as an excuse for unacceptable behaviour either.
 
sounds like a stupid fucking idea to me. "it's not your fault if you steal from someone." uh....yeah it is. just because you're on drugs doesnt mean its ok to steal from other people or businesses.damn people are crazy.
 
In one way it's blaming the victim, but so is throwing someone w/ a heroin problem in jail for being a drug addict.

Some sort of limits will have to be set, and w/ the recidivism rate on addicts being so high, the majority will still be ending up in prisons eventually.

The idea isn't "Let's throw addicts in jail because we're spitefull fucks". It's "Your drug addiction makes you a non-functional member of society so you have to be seperated." With that in mind, after 3-5 times of saying you'll change and being unable to, you can't just be left to run amok. Either longer in-patient treatment w/ prison like elements or actual prison seems to still be the answer for habitual offenders. Not because it works, but because there aren't other options. Full scale legalization wouldn't stop anything either. Addicts are still addicts are still addicts. And if they steal to cover a habit, just because it's sold in stores doesn't mean they won't just steal drugs or steal to buy drugs from some guy over-the-counter.
 
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I disagree It is our moral duty to eat away at the profit margins of Tesco and Walmart. I class myself as a non-functional member of society. a society in which the rape of developing countries and shite conditions for workers both here and abroad by corporations is not a crime. But when we take a couple of DVDs from said corporations we are criminals.
Let the hand grasp what the eye covets.
'drug addicts that cant handle their shit so they go out and commit crimes' 8(
No there are poor drug addicts, who shouildn't be judged by rich drug addicts sat at their compiuters who clearly have never experienced the problems which create a 'problem' addict..
Dont ask where my computer came from =D
The answer is not to get caught.
 
someone mentioned a three strikes and your out policy - hmm - then people just get morre desperate when they had their three chances, and c'mon- serious addiction is gonna drive a person to lift to pay their habit,whatever strike their on-thats why its addiction and not an i-can-stop-after-three-tries???
we in the uk focus entirley to much on punishment and not enough on rehabilitation - for those who want it of course(lol), and sadly the press is being facetious over the judges remarks- as the honorable:) previous poster explains-those display can just be very tempting indeed-I dont think its a question of "mollycoddling" addicts-but looking at the very real issues under all the addicyion - ah well - we've finally got it through our thick heads that alcohol canbe addictive-another centry(lol)and we may find ourselves enlightened on the nature and drives of addiction! i think this judge is trying to distinguish between those who are desperate and those who act out of sheer cruelty or greed;high(boomboom) time the distinction was made over here! no im strting to sound scandinavian-and or dutch - they have a mostly enlihtened attitude- or my ex hubby would have never gotten clean!( that he then switched his addiction to me is the reason he's ex) - but hey - points for a system that doesnt punish deperation!
 
MTGG said:
I disagree It is our moral duty to eat away at the profit margins of Tesco and Walmart. I class myself as a non-functional member of society. a society in which the rape of developing countries and shite conditions for workers both here and abroad by corporations is not a crime. But when we take a couple of DVDs from said corporations we are criminals.
Let the hand grasp what the eye covets.
'drug addicts that cant handle their shit so they go out and commit crimes' 8(
No there are poor drug addicts, who shouildn't be judged by rich drug addicts sat at their compiuters who clearly have never experienced the problems which create a 'problem' addict..
Dont ask where my computer came from =D
The answer is not to get caught.
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And companies have to face justice w/in our borders for said offenses.

Masquerading simple thievery for selfish wants and desires as rebellion is exactly why no one will take your point of view seriously.

Drug addicts, if functional and not affecting anyone else, aren't a problem. Property crime against individual persons is. Stealing from a store affects the employees, even the little ones, as loss prevention is a cost that gets handed down to the consumers and considered costs of doing business so it will also affect the employees salaries/bonuses/benefits, etc., not drug addicts. People like you will make up whatever excuse you want to steal and create some semi-intellectual excuse to justify it.

Peopel create drug addicts. The system has nothing to do with it. Old rich drunks that beat their wives are still just drug addicts. Their socioeconomic status only allows them to better weather the effects.

"Moral duty"? That's laughable. What about addicts that steal a car stereo from someone? Now they have to go buy another one. Or let me guess: they should risk prosecution to steal another one from WalMart? Yeah. That will bring the man down. Any day now.
 
MasterOfTheObvious said:
Masquerading simple thievery for selfish wants and desires as rebellion is exactly why no one will take your point of view seriously.
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That is true. Rightly said. Youv'e got me on that one. =D
 
MasterOfTheObvious said:
People like you will make up whatever excuse you want to steal and create some semi-intellectual excuse to justify it.
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shit. you know me better than myself...no sarcasm intended...this charge is always levied against me , even by myself...I plead guilty...
I have no intention of 'bringing the man down', but I DO have to live in this era. Therefore fuck it, I make no bones about it...absolute power is the goal, lets not dress it up anymore. Means justify ends...
True Capitalism is a form of anarchy; thatcherism is proof of the link between individualism and capitalism, as is the American ideal (De Tocqueville?) which sees the 'rugged indivualism' of the frontier trasposed to capitalism. Lets just say that the thief deserves whatever he gets (dual meaning also intended.) I think its called manifest destiny.Yes I know....but theres nothing like devils advocate to a discussion going. Actually is this classsed as trolling? Im not trying to offend people, just have a laugh...let me know...
 
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GentlemanLoser said:
In one way it's blaming the victim, but so is throwing someone w/ a heroin problem in jail for being a drug addict.
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on the other hand you have to realize that no one forced them to become addicted to drugs. and I agree with posts after mine which say that stealing as a form of rebellion is a complete sham. Its nothing more than greed and it's not fair for people like that to leech off the rest of society. This is what causes the rest of us to pay more for everything, while people like this sit back and enjoy the fruits of our toils. I for one, have had enough. If you want to do drugs, then by all means, do drugs. But don't use that as an excuse for becoming a drain on society. There is such a thing as responsible drug use.
 
MTGG said:
I have no intention of 'bringing the man down', but I DO have to live in this era. Therefore fuck it, I make no bones about it...absolute power is the goal, lets not dress it up anymore. Means justify ends...
True Capitalism is a form of anarchy; thatcherism is proof of the link between individualism and capitalism, as is the American ideal (De Tocqueville?) which sees the 'rugged indivualism' of the frontier trasposed to capitalism. Lets just say that the thief deserves whatever he gets (dual meaning also intended.) I think its called manifest destiny.Yes I know....but theres nothing like devils advocate to a discussion going. Actually is this classsed as trolling? Im not trying to offend people, just have a laugh...let me know...
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MTGG:
Absolute power? Thats facisim, not anarchy or capitalism. Unregulated Capitalism didn't work, but it's an interesting idea (Pre New Deal). Why advocate the system if all your'e trying to do is undermine it? Operating from within the system would work better for gaining the power than trying to pick away at it in this passive-aggresive "I'll pick and choose the laws I follow" fashion. while no one, I can't think of any one person, follows all the laws. From jay walking to homicide to simply smoking pot. What you're implying is that we should all just walk to streets w/ a 6-shooter and take what we want. That isn't Capitalism, that's not a system or a society in any sense. Regulated Capitalisim is the only solution: someone has to take control and say "You're doing it this way" or nothing will get accomplished, and elected representatives are that voice (we could get into a seperate argument about our representatives and how they're chosen, but that's another thread).

Every so often we let the corporations and gorvernment run wild, see the results, regulate and control, then remove the un-necessary. Like creating the FDA and allowing Unions to keep these private interests in check. But eventually, those things themselves become a hinderance and we have to start over: the FDA now allows poorly tested drugs to get through and Unions are an antiquated and pointless part of a system that is largely protected by the government now.


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So, it's a goal to find a way to get addicts to join the workforce and pay for their own habits like drunks and perscription pill poppers.

I'm hardly saying let's exist in some socialist la-la-land where drug addicts get free drugs just so they leave average citizens alone. At some point, moracca is correct: a choice was made. But addiction isn't a choice, it's a social disease. Letting those people, gudided by their selfish desires get what they want is the first step in relinquishing control. I don't like the idea at all, and frankly am unwilling to pay for it. That's caving in to a minority or special interest and the reason liberals are just so annoying. The greater good isn't served by giving every crying child what it demands.

I can't believe most street walking drug users love the life on the street. But right now, they have no other options. If they're given 3-5 chances, whatever, and a seperate drug court and job placement, and supervised access to their drugs w/ as many chances as possible to become functional users or to addiction treatment, they have a chance. Yes, we're saying "You have to change" and putting preasure on them, which creates a cycle. But w/ the low rates of succsss on addiction treatment, all one can do is try. And limits have to be placed. You cant just continue to let them steal, go to rehab, come out and say "I'm cured!" only to relapse and repeat. Where is the limit? When do we as a society decide that a person can't function within it and is only a liability to the majority?
 
I think rehab is a better option than jail in these cases. There are a lot of dope addicts who will steal but would never hurt someone to do so. They just are dope sick and really need a hit. In jail you never really reform. You withdrawl andf then you just crave the drug till you get out, or buy drugs in jail.

Rehab might not always work but I guarantee you a better success rate than what we say in jails.
 
But it's not my fault, it's the drugs

La, Di, Da, I'm just walking down the street, minding my own business and then, and then, I'M ADDICTED TO DRUGS......................................................

Shit, How did that happen? It couldn't be my fault could it? No Way Jose!

Oh well, I have a job so I'll just spend some of my money on drugs, nor all of it. Yeh, That's cool. I'm a responsible and moral person.

Oh, sorry. I forgot. I'm NOT responsible or moral. Drugs have taken over my entire being and now I can't help myself. I can do anything I want to get drugs. I know there's rehab available for free but I don't want to do that. I know, I'll just wait till I get caught by the Police and they will MAKE me go to rehab. OK. That'll work. This is easy, nothing's my fault.

Now I'm not totally cold. If you get nabbed for stealing, dealing etc. because of a drug habit you go into rehab. NO CHOICE. This is your one chance. It's your life and if it's fucked up go look in the mirror to see the person who's at fault.

To make a long story short I say either be responsible for your actions or you don't belong in society. There is no excuse for bad behavior.
 
Poor? Homeless? Addicted? How'd they get that way?

Been there, done that.

I never stole to get my fix but when I started selling dime bags of smack to high school kids I knew it had to stop. Broke into an abandoned motel. The worst of it was over after 2 days. After 3 days I got some food into myself and found a former friend that let me clean myself up enough to get a job.
I still do drugs now and again but I never let it get out of hand. I do understand where you're coming from but all I'm saying is until you get someone to realize it is up to them to straighten themselves out it won't happen. As long as they keep thinking, "I can't help it" they won't.

If you've been there you know what I'm talking about.

I wish there was an easy answer but there isn't. What can you do with an addict that won't even try? Sooner or later they're going to kill themselves or hurt or kill someone else.

You got any ideas?
 
fruitfly said:
Turning Point, a charity set up to help people suffering from drug and alcohol problems, mental health issues and learning disabilities, welcomed the scheme.----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't jail addicts who shoplift from tempting displays, says chief judge
By Joshua Rozenberg, Legal Editor, The Teleraph (UK)
(Filed: 14/12/2005)

Link
Click to expand...


I just want to say this;

I am currently involved with the Turning Point, as VOLUNTARY patient. I go every day, only 2.5hrs a day. For group sessions and one to one once a week

The service they provide is free, but most people there are on DTO (drug treatment orders) from the courts.

Most of them are/were criminal addicts. Some of them have stopped using, some haven't. Most of them, if caught offending whilst on bail or whatever it is called are fucked and will go to jail for years.

The thing that annoyed me, is that I was speaking to a new person there, who said that he "blagged it" and told the court he was a drug addict. He was supposed to go down for three years, but now all he has to do is keep up his attendence at the treatment centre for some time (not sure 6 month - a year) and he wont go to prison.

This fucks me right off and I know I should keep out of other peoples affairs, but If i'm in group, trying to help myself, and know he's sitting there just to keep out of prison, not trying to quit a drug problem and rebuild his life, then I don't feel 100% comfortable.

I think i might like to get into a residential rehab, but its very expensive, and getting funding from the council for a ketamine, YES KETAMINE addiction is very difficuilt. Way way easier if you're a heroin user. Why? They call it Techno SMACK for a reason. In my opinion, reason it is worse is it is so cheap.


RANT OVER i know I haven't made that many points, but felt I had to get them off my chest


SAM
 
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