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Determinism

EasyStreet

Greenlighter
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
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Just wanted to discuss this one here. What's your opinion on it?

I've believed this all my life but never thought to look into it. I used to think, as I'm sure everyone must at one point, that I was the only person who thought like this until I actually studied it.

Anyway, counter arguments are welcome as I've only ever spoke to people who agree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism if you're interested.
 
I agree that with a sufficiently-powerful computer we could probably simulate a universe not dissimilar to our own, based on only a few starting conditions, but I don't think this necessarily has to mean that there is no way to change anything.

Consider for a moment what "you" are in a mechanistic clockwork universe. You are still a decision-making agent, basing these decisions on information available to you. This is not a bad thing, as if we based our decisions on nothing at all (the so-called "free will" scenario), we would never improve our behaviour, never progress personally or as a society, never learn anything, and from a functional perspective we would never change. Our existence as the result of a complex formula based on the past is what allows us to move forward. So whether in the simulation or in reality (however you choose to define reality), each agent -- that is to say, each molecule, animal, human, and society -- bases its future behaviour on information from its past.

When I spent my efforts reducing this down to some kind of truth by which I could live my life, I ended up with this: Even if it's all computable, there is still merit in the part we play. To disagree and flex your free will for the sake of doing something unpredictable, without any gain to any party, is completely unnecessary and thus we don't do it. Just because the implementation of the universe is deterministic doesn't mean we need to live as if nothing can be changed. We can change things, and will do exactly that when it is necessary. And we will judge when it is necessary based on the past. And these judgements will affect the future, in precisely the same manner as past decisions affect us today. This gives us tremendous power.

Further reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_physics :)
 
If you agree, that our universe is deterministic, then shouldn't you also agree, that all control we seem to have over our decisions is illusory, meaning that every decision you seem to be able to make is just another result of different past results.
So even when you think "I'm not gonna do this, I'm gonna do that instead", it's still all conditioned by the events that happened before. If you act some way, it's not you who decides. It's the result of your experiences and some other variables (probably only biochemical), which already exist.
Knowing and understanding this doesn't mean that you have to stop doing whatever you are doing.

I believe this to be the case, but it doesn't change my life that much or make it less meaningful. I think it even helps me understand other people better, when I'm able to be mindful of the determinism while analyzing other peoples actions.

For example it helps me understand the fact, that no-one really is good or bad, but just a bundle of experiences, which form into their actions. There really is no-one to blame for the suffering someone has caused. It just happens for different reasons. (Doesn't mean that nothing should be done about it)
Also I think this understanding helped me get out of my severe depression years back - when I started thinking, that there is really no-one to blame for my situation (not me, nor others).

Maybe I can't say I understand the determinism of our universe, since I'm still living inside this illusion of control also, but I believe it to be true.
 
Whatever the exact opposite of Determinism is, I believe in that.
 
^The exact opposite of determinism would be the doctrine that every occurence is a random, uncaused event. Unfortunately that doesn't leave room for free will either.

For me, the mind/body problem forms a constructive dilemma in favour of determinism. If mind is ultimately contingent on matter (i.e. if epiphenomenalism is true), then that matter is governed by the laws of nature, and thus the future is determined. On the other hand, if mind is not physical, there is no way for it to move things in the physical world (unless you're going to reject the principle of conservation of momentum), and therefore the physical world is unaffected by mind, with the future unfolding in a completely predictable and determined way.
 
for a while i followed a deterministic point of view, but it felt hollow and incomplete. i take your request for a counterargument as a request for a rational reason for rejecting determinism, but that is not a simple endeavour.

in lieu of this, i briefly present the "glass half empty/full" analogy, and say that it is a matter of perspective, since both can seem equally sound. i simply prefer the other. it feels more honest, albeit quite irrational as well.
 
it isn't really a justification, that's why i said it was in lieu of one. it's just an experiential note (an incomplete one at that but a nudge in a certain direction).

btw: love your reply. well said!
 
^The exact opposite of determinism would be the doctrine that every occurence is a random, uncaused event. Unfortunately that doesn't leave room for free will either.

For me, the mind/body problem forms a constructive dilemma in favour of determinism. If mind is ultimately contingent on matter (i.e. if epiphenomenalism is true), then that matter is governed by the laws of nature, and thus the future is determined. On the other hand, if mind is not physical, there is no way for it to move things in the physical world (unless you're going to reject the principle of conservation of momentum), and therefore the physical world is unaffected by mind, with the future unfolding in a completely predictable and determined way.

Certainly we have not completely modeled or even observed all of the physical laws of the Universe. The argument is a non-sequitur. If mind is contigent upon matter, it does not necessarily follow that it is bound to the current Standard Model of Physics.

Additionally, assuming the phenomonalogical consciousness is an emergent property of the physical architecture of the human brain, then it could also contain emergent features that were not present in the system from which it emerged out of. For instance, consider the molecule of water. Neither hydrogen nor oxygen contain the property of wetness, however, when the elements are combined, the property of wetness emerges.

Now, is water really wet or is it a description of our subjective experience with water?

I struggled with the Problem of Interaction: If mind is immaterial and body is material, than how can two distinctly, separate substances causally interact?

The only resolutions to that problem seem to be that both mind and body is physical and that we have not constructed a complete model of physics or mind and body are a monism (which we percieve two seemingly, distinctly separate features of the same ontological substance). This is presupposing a substance ontology.

There seems to be strong correlations (and in some contexts, strong evidence) of the physical brain transforming the subjective experiences of a consciousness, as well as subjective experiences of a consciousness transforming the physical architecture of the brain. This of course begs the question, "what is consciousness?" That is a question that has always been difficult for me to answer, or at least illustrate in words that generates the same implicit feeling that I have when I think about it in my head.

I am sure I am not considering additional variables so I now look to you, my friend.
 
If mind is contigent upon matter, it does not necessarily follow that it is bound to the current Standard Model of Physics.
No, but it is bound to whatever set of laws that dictates matter, which is presumably determinate.
Now, is water really wet or is it a description of our subjective experience with water?
I am very strongly supportive of the idea that wetness is what Locke would have termed a secondary property, one that matter only has in virtue of our observation of it.
"what is consciousness?" That is a question that has always been difficult for me to answer
Don't worry, you're not the only one ;)
 
If you agree, that our universe is deterministic, then shouldn't you also agree, that all control we seem to have over our decisions is illusory, meaning that every decision you seem to be able to make is just another result of different past results.
So even when you think "I'm not gonna do this, I'm gonna do that instead", it's still all conditioned by the events that happened before. If you act some way, it's not you who decides. It's the result of your experiences and some other variables (probably only biochemical), which already exist.
Knowing and understanding this doesn't mean that you have to stop doing whatever you are doing.

I believe this to be the case, but it doesn't change my life that much or make it less meaningful. I think it even helps me understand other people better, when I'm able to be mindful of the determinism while analyzing other peoples actions.

For example it helps me understand the fact, that no-one really is good or bad, but just a bundle of experiences, which form into their actions. There really is no-one to blame for the suffering someone has caused. It just happens for different reasons. (Doesn't mean that nothing should be done about it)
Also I think this understanding helped me get out of my severe depression years back - when I started thinking, that there is really no-one to blame for my situation (not me, nor others).

Maybe I can't say I understand the determinism of our universe, since I'm still living inside this illusion of control also, but I believe it to be true.

Even if we presuppose a deterministic Universe, in which all of our actions are determined through a physical algorithm, it does not necessarily resolve us our of actions. If our consciousness merely deludes us into believing in the concept of free will, then we have the ability to abstract concepts that do not exists within the physical laws of the Universe (how would our consciousness consider a concept such as free will, if it is not implicitly contained within the structure of the Universe?) That is analogous to this computer that I am typing on developing sentience, perception, and experience following the same algorithm that it was constructed upon.

This is not an argument against determinism, it merely illustrates the notion that this algorithm allows for the generation of abstract concepts, or that the algorithm involves a description of free will. Considering the notion that we did not choose to be here, we were merely thrust upon this Universe (and that God does not exists or at best, he is a neutral integer because if we are deterministic machines afterall, then God cannot interfere with our decisions or it would be predetermined), we are all struggling to discover our purpose. As Satre described (much better than I am about to), we give every object that we experience a purpose. We construct the plans for a hammer before we build the hammer. We determine what the purpose of a tree is, because the tree does not have a sign telling us what its purpose is; essence precedes existence - its form is concieved before it exists as a real thing. However, with humanity, existence precedes essence - we exist and then we must define ourselves. In this context, since we are all humans and we are each subjectively defining our purpose, we are responsible for each of our actions because each of our actions affect the purpose of the whole.

Now, for a simple thought experiment that just came to mind: If we ever successfully constructed true AI, in which the algorithm was able to generate extensions of the original algorithm based upon constant, streaming external sensory data, in which it was able to calculate an outcome out of a set of possibilities, would we still call this determined?
 
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^The exact opposite of determinism would be the doctrine that every occurence is a random, uncaused event. Unfortunately that doesn't leave room for free will either.

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of, "I create my own reality."

Positive surroundings, thoughts, etc... lead to good things happening in the world, negative influences, surroundings, feelings, etc... lead to negative results.

And so forth
 
@ Changed: Determinism doesn't reject causal relationships, or that human decisions affect their environments. Actually that's the entire basis of determinism -- the state of reality at any given moment is a necessary reaction to its previous state. Think of the universe as a line of standing dominoes. At the beginning of time, something fell the first piece, and at that moment the fate of the entire timeline of the universe was set in stone as well -- each domino would fall successively until no standing piece remained. You are one such piece. When you "fall" (make a decision to take an action), so does the next piece (your environment is affected accordingly). But your decisions themselves were necessary and fated as well.

Maybe try and think of time as another spatial dimension. You could think of the universe as one four-dimensional "object", which simply exists. It's just that there happens to be a pattern when you look at "cross-sections" along the fourth dimension. Like taking equally distanced cross sections along the vertical axis of a cone: each one has a radius exactly X units lesser than the last.


When I try to make arguments for determinism, sometimes I feel a bit lost, because I've never really understood the other point of view (except on LSD, actually, LOL). I'm not really sure what I'm trying to shoot down.
 
However, with humanity, existence precedes essence - we exist and then we must define ourselves. In this context, since we are all humans and we are each subjectively defining our purpose, we are responsible for each of our actions because each of our actions affect the purpose of the whole.
The need to define yourself arises from thought - the tool that has become most powerful in humans of all the species we know (and often "too powerful for our own good"). Thought makes one self-conscious. It's just a chatter inside your head, which has become limitedly understanding of itself. As I see it, there is no reason to say, that the thought-out decisions are less deterministic, that the actions of a single celled organisms. Those thoughts still had their reasons to arise. They are just way more complex most probably.
I'm saying probably, cause I really don't know all the laws of existence and life.

Now, for a simple thought experiment that just came to mind: If we ever successfully constructed true AI, in which the algorithm was able to generate extensions of the original algorithm based upon constant, streaming external sensory data, in which it was able to calculate an outcome out of a set of possibilities, would we still call this determined?
I don't see why we couldn't call it deterministic, since it's us who create the algorithm (meaning in theory we should understand what it's outcomes could be). Not understanding doesn't mean there's no determinism. But I'm not even sure if a "true AI" will ever be possible, at least with our current knowledge. Maybe if we come to understand every law of our universe.

I'm only talking of my own experience, understandings and theoretically possible conclusions.

We can't say if determinism is true or not, before we understand all the laws that govern existence.
 
If you agree, that our universe is deterministic, then shouldn't you also agree, that all control we seem to have over our decisions is illusory, meaning that every decision you seem to be able to make is just another result of different past results.
So even when you think "I'm not gonna do this, I'm gonna do that instead", it's still all conditioned by the events that happened before. If you act some way, it's not you who decides. It's the result of your experiences and some other variables (probably only biochemical), which already exist.

But if "you" are just another deterministic cog in the machine of reality, then it IS you who decides. Since, after all, you are the result of your experiences and some other variables, probably only biochemical, which already exist :)

So you do, in fact, exert will. The control is real, we just follow our programing to figure out how to exert it. "A man can often get what he wants, but cannot want what he wants".
 
^That just seems like a very egocentric view of the world to me.

It may be egocentric, but it's powerful. The ultimate positive affirmation. Know that you can create your reality, and you are without limits.
 
It may be egocentric, but it's powerful. The ultimate positive affirmation. Know that you can create your reality, and you are without limits.

exactly... when you think this way you are in the driver's seat in every sense.

I guess it is strange for a so-called Buddhist to believe in the power of the ego. 8o
 
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