Mental Health Depression NOT caused by low serotonin

[Ismene2]

No surprise to anyone I'm sure. I personally never found SSRIs did anything but mong me out and make me fat.

Low serotonin levels do not cause depression, according to a major review.

Today's landmark findings call into question society's ever-growing reliance on antidepressants like Prozac.

Millions of patients take selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, designed to boost levels of the 'feel-good' chemical.

University College London researchers argue, however, that there's 'no convincing evidence' that depression is caused by an imbalance of the chemical.

One academic involved in the study described the findings as 'eye-opening', and that 'everything I thought I knew has been flipped upside down'.

Lead author Professor Joanna Moncrieff, a psychiatrist, said: 'The popularity of the "chemical imbalance" theory has coincided with a huge increase in the use of antidepressants.

'Thousands suffer from side effects of antidepressants, including severe withdrawal effects that can occur when people try to stop them, yet prescription rates continue to rise.

Depression 'is NOT caused by low serotonin levels', study

University College London experts say a review of data has uncovered 'no evidence' depression is caused by low serotonin levels but other experts say the widely used drugs still work.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Mjäll]

Did anyone ever have good reason to believe those meds work?

Major tragedy.

Good progress.

 

[Mysterie]

i tried zoloft, celexa

all that happened was i was so numb to my emotions that i tried to cut my wrists with a dirty blade. i wanted to feel something, even if it was pain .

i had a scar for a bit but it didn't get infected

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

I think that we overall know very little about psychobiology and psychopharmacology. So there might be something here.

 

[Nas47]

They work on some people (ssri/snri/threecycl.AD..),but lot of side effect.Couldn't advice anyone to take a try with this(docs.do it).way better microdosing shrooms or cacti

 

[December Flower]

I learned at work that it's actually the dopamin level that is so important,
which is why people suffering from Parkinsons usually also suffer from depression (90%+)
as Parkinsons comes with dopamin pathology

someone explain me that, i'll believe neurotransmitters are unimportant when it comes to depression

I find it extremely weird how they take the step from "it's not serotonin" to "it's none of the four" it's a bit silly, tbh
and makes me doubt the seriousness of this study.

Yeah, it's not serotonin, because serotonin deficiency causes anxiety and psychologial restlessness, not depression.
dopamin deficiency causes depression.

The issue about ssri et al is not that chemical balance isn't super important,
it's that using drugs as a crutch to create said chemical balance is so fucking stupid it borders on retardation,
since it animates your body to depend on the drug instead of depending on itself and therefore leaning more into chemical imbalance
it's been a medical market stunt for a long time

they argue for the right cause, because psychiatry in the way it is performed is a hoax,
and dependance on drugs is a very slippery slope,
but honestly they got issues applying logic.

 

[December Flower]

They work on some people (ssri/snri/threecycl.AD..),but lot of side effect.Couldn't advice anyone to take a try with this(docs.do it).way better microdosing shrooms or cacti

honestly the best thing to do is forcing your neurons to communicate more, and yes, a psychotrope substance could help
but so would going on a physical trip, doing sports, eating lemons, fucking ladies, playing music, the works

edit: (psychotropes might also hurt )

 

[Nas47]

Ye...eat a lemons right from the tree this year...no joke

 

[December Flower]

Ye...eat a lemons right from the tree this year...no joke

well, not an entire lemon, you're going to get acid reflux,
but 10ml of lemon juice / day pretty much keeps the doctor away.
pretty much.

it does not save you from car accidents, fires, or from space debris,
but it does help

 

[Mysterie]

warm lemon water in the morning with a tiny amount of salt, MMMMMMMM. !!!

 

[Eligiu]

I've suspected this for a while. I think things like bipolar are different, because I have episodes which aren't triggered by anything noticeable minus seasonal changes and hormonal imbalances, but my antipsychotic used for bipolar depression (lurasidone) definitely helped my mood improve relatively quickly. And I was in hardcore depression mode for like 3 months, like sleeping 20 hours a day, not leaving my bed to eat or drink just getting up to piss and crawl to a 2 hour work shift and home. Withdrew from all my friends, hated being around people, wanted to die overnight, didn't enjoy anything at all. And when I had a 2-3 month long manic episode a year and a bit later, Seroquel aborted the mania within a week and sodium valproate has prevented any further episodes.

I think for people who have depression, just your sort of run of the mill low mood usually have some contributing factor which needs to be looked at whether it be housing related, financial, intimate relationships, family, friends.

Therapy is the answer there, not meds.

 

[Eryximachus]

Did anyone ever have good reason to believe those meds work?

Major tragedy.

Good progress.

Nope. The evidence was always pretty clear they either barely work or don't work at all. It was the 1980s. They were just starting to crack down hard on amphetamine, benzodiazepines, you name it. They needed something to use as an alternative.

The problem we have now is society is crumbling in a multitude of ways. More and more people need drugs to get by, and many are going mad.

I left NYC a few months ago, and went out at one of my old spots in the West Village - a world famous location. Streets were dead, bums passed out, got attacked by an old guy... A decade ago, you'd see celebrities, models, etc.

It's going to be rough.

 

[Eryximachus]

I learned at work that it's actually the dopamin level that is so important,
which is why people suffering from Parkinsons usually also suffer from depression (90%+)
as Parkinsons comes with dopamin pathology

Are we sure though? The dopamine hypothesis makes sense given the discovery of levodopa like 70 years ago.

But I think the disease is more complex. But it is a disease.

Depression, anxiety, ADHD, or more subjective problems would probably be less of an issue if people could afford decent homes, earned a decent wage, weren't constantly in fear of losing their jobs, had access to quality healthcare, and so on...

My mother developed rapid onset Alzheimer's. Now, I make a good living ($300K), but a *decent* memory care facility is $15K per month pretty much everywhere in the country. I can't afford that. So, I bought a huge house and hired help. And even that is hardly cheap. I could throw her into a Medicaid nursing home, but they are hellholes.

The median household income in the US is $67,521 according to the 2020 census. Where in America can you live on that? Let alone save, care for family, have children.

Are most Americans driving 10+ year old cars and living in manufactured homes? All I know is there are a lot of hopeless people out there.

 

[December Flower]

Are we sure though? The dopamine hypothesis makes sense given the discovery of levodopa like 70 years ago.

But I think the disease is more complex. But it is a disease.

Depression, anxiety, ADHD, or more subjective problems would probably be less of an issue if people could afford decent homes, earned a decent wage, weren't constantly in fear of losing their jobs, had access to quality healthcare, and so on...

My mother developed rapid onset Alzheimer's. Now, I make a good living ($300K), but a *decent* memory care facility is $15K per month pretty much everywhere in the country. I can't afford that. So, I bought a huge house and hired help. And even that is hardly cheap. I could throw her into a Medicaid nursing home, but they are hellholes.

The median household income in the US is $67,521 according to the 2020 census. Where in America can you live on that? Let alone save, care for family, have children.

Are most Americans driving 10+ year old cars and living in manufactured homes? All I know is there are a lot of hopeless people out there.

15K PER MONTH?!

I've said it once and I'll say it again, America is a third-world country. Change my mind.
Your health care is a joke, omg. As a fact it's an insult to the American people. That would be free, here. If anything 10€ per day for accomodation(that includes a room, bed, bathroom, food and general service, also ekg, eeg, mri, blood tests, docs, meds, etc.) for a neuroclinic to properly assess the situation, and care homes are not even by far that expensive..wow.
I still can't believe it, it's so ridiculous. $15,000 PER MONTH oh my god. The most expensive home I can think of is 3k per month, and that is paying for all the personnel, all the food, the accomodation, hospital beds, therapists, doctors, medicine, events, a priest & music for mass once every two weeks, musicians working there, sports/cognitive trainer, etc.
Also you'd get money depending on her Pflegegrad, sounds like Tier 2 or 3, so 300-600€ per month you get just due to her condition, in addition to pension or social help.
I've heard calling an ambulance costs like $3000 too, that's usually free ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD
land of the free my fucking ass. land of the poor people in debt to rich people.

Yes we are pretty sure about that.
Also, no it's really not more complex than that. There's ofc more things that play a role, like what's actually happening in your life, the amount of Vitamin D you get, and so on..
You're looking for reasons to be depressed in the US, but truth be told, there's almost no difference: 9.2% depressed ppl here in Germany(and we have free health care and education, social housing for the homeless, no gun problem, no idiot problem, no dumb Kindergarten-level of politics, so....guess we have Weltschmerz and post-NS-guilt)

10.6% in the USA

Guess what, here some people are all depressed because we have 10 months of shit weather, and then 2 months of much too hot weather we're not accustomed to, because we have 10 months of shit weather. srsly, you're going to find something, and chances are, the richer your country, the unhappier the people.

People always find stuff they hate about life, no matter how well they are doing.
Actually real depression is more of a "luxury" sickness, because it usually happens if you blew your dopamine system out of proportion,
which is a standard issue in the modern world. (TV, games, drugs, porn, fast food, etc.)

Also by the logic you used, Africa would have the most depressed people: it only has 3.3% to 9.8% (somewhere inbetween, can't tell)

 

[Eryximachus]

15K PER MONTH?!

I've said it once and I'll say it again, America is a third-world country. Change my mind.
Your health care is a joke, omg. As a fact it's an insult to the American people. That would be free, here. If anything 10€ per day for accomodation(that includes a room, bed, bathroom, food and general service, also ekg, eeg, mri, blood tests, docs, meds, etc.) for a neuroclinic to properly assess the situation, and care homes are not even by far that expensive..wow.
I still can't believe it, it's so ridiculous. $15,000 PER MONTH oh my god. The most expensive home I can think of is 3k per month, and that is paying for all the personnel, all the food, the accomodation, hospital beds, therapists, doctors, medicine, events, a priest & music for mass once every two weeks, musicians working there, sports/cognitive trainer, etc.
Also you'd get money depending on her Pflegegrad, sounds like Tier 2 or 3, so 300-600€ per month you get just due to her condition, in addition to pension or social help.
I've heard calling an ambulance costs like $3000 too, that's usually free ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD
land of the free my fucking ass. land of the poor people in debt to rich people.

Yes we are pretty sure about that.
Also, no it's really not more complex than that. There's ofc more things that play a role, like what's actually happening in your life, the amount of Vitamin D you get, and so on..
You're looking for reasons to be depressed in the US, but truth be told, there's almost no difference: 9.2% depressed ppl here in Germany(and we have free health care and education, social housing for the homeless, no gun problem, no idiot problem, no dumb Kindergarten-level of politics, so....guess we have Weltschmerz and post-NS-guilt)

10.6% in the USA

Guess what, here some people are all depressed because we have 10 months of shit weather, and then 2 months of much too hot weather we're not accustomed to, because we have 10 months of shit weather. srsly, you're going to find something, and chances are, the richer your country, the unhappier the people.

People always find stuff they hate about life, no matter how well they are doing.
Actually real depression is more of a "luxury" sickness, because it usually happens if you blew your dopamine system out of proportion,
which is a standard issue in the modern world. (TV, games, drugs, porn, fast food, etc.)

Also by the logic you used, Africa would have the most depressed people: it only has 3.3% to 9.8% (somewhere inbetween, can't tell)

First point - $15,000 is for Memory Care. It's like an assisted living apartment - small, no oven or range - but there is more staffing and they do other stuff. That does include all expenses - other than cell phones and what not I already cover.

But truthfully, you got a lot right - but you missed the relevance of Africa. There, you have an extended family support group. For a variety of reasons, I have no one. If I had say 3 siblings and a dozen cousins in driving distance, I could manage this.

It is more difficult for me as my father already had dementia. In Africa, I don't think institutionalization would be necessary.

It is the atomization of society into fine paranoic particles is a major factor in mass depression. Humans are not just tribal in the way Americans think of it - Racial - but we evolved until very recently in small communities of about 200 people who were typically all related. Until the past few hundred years, most people married a cousin.

There are many social animals that, if you remove them from their pack or group and isolate them, clinical learned helplessness manifests and is easily cured with morphine (the only true antidepressant).

A third point is the Faustian bargain of technology. We have been promised since the industrial revolution that the world would be better. But is it? People are more desperate than ever, nearly all have completely lost hope in the future being better than the past. This is harder to prove scientifically obviously, but it can be inferred - isn't it bizarre how many films are about some kind dystopia or apocalypse, especially with zombies? I'm old enough to remember when the first shuttle launches took place, I went to Epcot Center at Disney World when it first opened, cars and computers became much more advanced, and the myriad problems we face whether resource scarcity, an inefficiently structured economy.... The government should obviously pay for skilled nursing care for the 20% of the population that will get some kind of dementia - there is no actuarial model to predict the disease, and even if there was, few could afford it.

Then we have declining living standards and rising prices (though housing has been a crisis for 15 years). In 1998, when I was a college student, I had free tuition to a top 10 school, but nothing else. I had a job back then making $15 per hour programming internet routers in the evenings. My rent was $450 per month for my own studio, a 6-pack of beer was $2-3, a pack of smokes was $1.25... A gram of cocaine was $50, real, and good. High quality MDMA that is impossible to find these days was $25 per pill - my biggest expense.

I'm just 44, but in the 22 years since I graduated from college, the country has in aggregate declined and most people believe it will get much worse.

One thing we do know from numerous studies is fecundity is correlated with the PERCEPTION of scarcity, not actual scarcity. People are having fewer to no kids or just one. No so for many immigrants who don't mind raising a family in a run down 1-bedroom apartment. If we extrapolate that all human emotions are related to sexual reproduction, the massive drop in fecundity that directly correlates with 20 years of soaring housing prices, stagnate wages for most, rising costs of consumer goods, I think it's safe to say that economic progress is essential to well-being and if the perception progress can't happen for too long of a time, revolution is the outcome.

I will just say this, as I do this as part of my job - never look at any of the social sciences in a vacuum. Psychology, economics, sociology and especially politics all need to be analyzed together to truly understand what is going on.

There was an ESRI map that showed the largest number of fentanyl deaths per capita were in cities that experienced the sharpest decrease in inflation adjusted income. Nearly 1 million people died needlessly because we do not have universal healthcare. We spend 13.2% of our GDP on healthcare, while every other First World country is half that. Yet our life expectancy is on par with Brazil.

This is a long topic. And I take it personally as I assumed, like most Americans, Medicare would take care of the millions of retired citizens who have dementia or Alzheimer's. A complete unbelievable shitshow.

While I analyze politics objectively (as best I can) in the context of how they affect the economy, I won't listen to one word from any politician until there is Universal Healthcare.

The good news is some states are truly progressive. I will likely be relocating to Los Angeles as Medi-Cal coverage of assisted facilities is much easier to get, they are inspected annually, and the quality I have seen is better than the NYC area. The cost of living in LA is lower than NYC, and it will lower my parental care expenses to zero.

 

[December Flower]

First point - $15,000 is for Memory Care. It's like an assisted living apartment - small, no oven or range - but there is more staffing and they do other stuff. That does include all expenses - other than cell phones and what not I already cover.

But truthfully, you got a lot right - but you missed the relevance of Africa. There, you have an extended family support group. For a variety of reasons, I have no one. If I had say 3 siblings and a dozen cousins in driving distance, I could manage this.

I don't know how most of your text related to anything we were talking about, but these two points.

15k is absolutely mad. I mean call the Mad Hatter sane kind of mad.
Any civilized country would be much much cheaper. 3k is the expensive end here

US is such a piece of shit country, I feel so bad for the people,
but honestly you're also too lazy to do anything about it..

What you're describing in the rest of your post to me sounds like

these videos make me cry, srsly. Americans are sooo fucked up...


typical Murican PTSD, you people are so screwed up psychologically,
often without knowing it.

Teaching children how to run from gunshot fire
that's so fucked up..

 

[chrispche]

I have to say, that Vortioxetine 20mg is working very well for me. Might be a placebo. Even if it is I don't mind as it seems to be helping.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I have to say, that Vortioxetine 20mg is working very well for me. Might be a placebo. Even if it is I don't mind as it seems to be helping.

and this is why I want to caution people to take this study in perspective

This study does not somehow mean they don't work well for a lot of people and provide benefits. It does not mean that raising serotonin doesn't help with depression.

 

[Ismene2]

They work on some people (ssri/snri/threecycl.AD..),but lot of side effect.Couldn't advice anyone to take a try with this(docs.do it).way better microdosing shrooms or cacti

Not sure theres any reliable evidence they work other than placebo - in most of the studies sugar pills work just as well for most people

 

[Cloudboy9001]

High incidence of emotional blunting from SSRI/SNRIs, SERT knockout mice studies, etc seem to indicate that low serotonin is associated with less depressive symptoms (eg apathy and anhedonia) and higher rates of anxiety.

Ultimately, what matters is whether the meds work--although, people being fed nonsense about "restoring a natural balance of chemicals in the brain", etc only confuses the issue.

SSRI/SNRI/MAOIs have a place for at least the odd person but they're very broad and dirty drugs. Use of more selective drugs like low dose rispiradone (~.25-.5mg 2x per day for highly selective antagonism of 2A receptors) for anxiety and low dose aripiprazole (~1-3mg) or naltrexone (~2-6mg) for partial agonism of D2 and MOR receptors (while still keeping some receptors unoccupied for dopamine and opioids to bind) is probably a better approach.