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Deism and Universism

like he said, its his perspective.

however i agree. you see actions, you don't see morality. you feel morality. so indeed its not out there. its in us.
 
Akoto said:
^A statement like that requires alot more than words. Got anything to back it up?
the burden of proof falls on you. in order to debunk what i said, you'd have to show that an object or action can have moral attributes intrinsic to it. you'd have to scientifically evaluate an object for its "morality-ness." as far as i know, this has never been done successfuly

plus, even if my hypothesis is wrong, and there is a morality intrinsic to the universe, how could you find it when everyone has a different idea of what it is?

furthermore, "there is a morality intrinsic to the universe" is analagous to saying that taste is intrinsic to plants, when in fact it's the interaction of the plant's chemicals and the human receptors and the processing of the raw data in the brain that produces the subjective experience of taste. likewise, moral feelings are a subjective experience based on subjective data processing and chemical interference
 
The quote that you are responding to simply refers to humankind. The idea is that no other human can tell you what's true, only you can ultimately decide what's true and what's not true. The idea of ultimate truth that we are referring to is the best truth that you can personally decide upon.

This has nothing to do with entities or beings more capable than we are.

I listen and read stuff on quantum physics and allthough I cannot fully grasp its concepts I listen to what other people have to say on the matter. I have faith that (some) people will not lie to me and base my reality on what some other people tell me. Yes I make the decision to accept that as truth, but I still havn't done the math myself to work it all out. Other peoples ideas can be a positive influence.
 
Sorry to divert the direction of this conversation but I don't assert to have a universal philosophy which we can all abide by, I simply posted my personal philosophy. A majority of my ideas are derived from experience and are largely anecdotal which leaves little room for application universally.

I am still defining who I am and what I believe. You guys helped me figure out a bit more about what I actually believe and what is illogical about some of my beliefs. I am still thinking upon some of these things so I won't share them right now.

New Direction:
I have been wondering if morality is simply guided by our chemical and biological processes.

I have read papers which indicate that the brain structure of a convicted and known serial killer is different than those who are considered to have 'normal, functional' human brains. They assert that the brain structure and behavior of the brain account for their justification's in the actions that they commit (i.e. they have no concept of right or wrong, they believe they were ordained by a supernatural force, they believe their actions are pure and just, they believe they are doing a service to mankind, etc.). There is evidence which indicates that love is merely the result of a chemical reward system centered around dopamine. We are all aware of depression, bi-polar disorders, schizophrenia, etc.

This arrives at my next question, since personal biology and chemistry is slightly different individually, does this mean that our moral perceptions and presuppositions are largely based on our natural processes?

If we consider this to be true, then can we take it one step further? Can we assert that genetics ultimately dictates your moral presuppositions and preceptions?
 
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^if you ask for the cause of morality, love, etc, there is a lot of uncertainty (just saying that they are chemical in nature is A. somewhat obvious B. vague C. doesnt give the whole picture... as if you ask me what that bar is made out of and i say atoms)

you could ask the question from a number of angles.

evolutionary: does the ability to feel morality have an evolutionary advantage, or perhaps do we have the ability on accident because of some other attribute we've evolved with?

psychological: how do we develop our feelings of morality?

sociological: to what extend does culture influence our morality?

my own hypothesizing leads me to suspect that our strongest subjective feelings have more of a basis in our early childhood experiences than in our genetics

i see the mind as something that builds on itself, and the top layer is always the "conscious" layer.

for example, a particular idea makes a kid uneasy. the more he thinks about it, the more it appears. he doesnt have the control of his mind that he wants. so what he does is consciously redirects his attention to other interesting things. eventually, all of his efforts no longer need to be applied consciously. he's influenced his subconscious will, creating a program to keep that concept out of consciousness. now the top layer can worry about other things, and right below the surface is his earlier self acting as censor (which takes up a lot of psychological energy). in a few years, after many programs (not all are the censor type program i pointed out), that program is buried relatively deep

why did that concept make him uneasy? the interaction between his present programs (conscious and subconscious), and his environment

following this line of thought, the more time you've been alive, the higher and more complex and more stable your mind has become. as a baby, the mind is very unstable (you see a baby cry horribly, then be happy in a moment when given what he wants) and this means it's more impressionable (and experience is more "real," closer to raw sense data)

for more on childrearing, heres a cool thread about a sociological study "Body pleasure and the origins of violence": http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=236404

and finally, to the point... perhaps we have morality because of the way we raise children? human groups, like any group of similar things that exchange information, are prone to self-perpetuating patterns (life itself could be seen as simply a self-perpetuating pattern--a group of materials arranged in such a way as to mechanically keep itself intact and create more versions of itself). if, somewhere along human history, someone with a peculiar brain gets the idea that people need to be punished for certain things, and everyone believes him and goes along with it, well now not only do you have people indoctrinating their offspring with this idea, you will probably see entirely new methods of child-rearing with this new concept of punishment. punishing the kids will lead to new psychological paradigms that call for more punishment (imho)

this self-perpetuating paradigm, i think, reached its height in the middle ages, when we see many signs of child abuse (e.g., in shakespeare's plays, hallucinations are common, as well as perhaps indications of derealization 'the world is a play' and of course the brutality of the time could be indicative as well)

hmm, perhaps this should start a new thread? sorry for the length :P
 
^^^

its a b and c

a. random murder and acts which polute the mind (rape will negatively taint a young person, or any person , in most cases) don't further our lives or others lives which is bad for keeping orselves as a group going

b. sort of goes along with a. but lends itself to molding which leads to...
.. . c.


but indeed an interesting topic.

we could live in a world where murder and rape would benefit us to an extent that it was considered morally right. not a world most of us can think of, but say if we didn't have ot rely on each other at all. babies were sefl sefficient, you didn't need to eat or drink. just stay alive.

thats not where we live though, so why do we live in a world that pushes certain necessities? why do most popular religions seem to have similar views and ideals? does it just follow our natural instinct to keep each other alive and well?
 
Quick question if you're willing to revisit the original topic. I realize you've moved on but I'm curious:

I also believe in a cosmic hiearchy of existence, meaning, the only logical conclusion I can draw from our universes' origin is that something of greater intelligence and power than us created this universe.


I simply believe an entity greater than us created this universe but it's highly possible that the entity which created this universe is the byproduct of an even greater entity and so on and so fourth.

Made me question this:

Unfortunately, since we can't create universes ourselves...

You're saying you believe that animate entities which are the byproducts of reactions caused by greater animate entities create universes of magnitudes, I think ;). Doesn't it seem more logical that we unintentionally and unknowingly create universes of a smaller magnitude ourselves from the reactions we cause, or do you believe we're on the lowest wrung of the cosmic hierarchy and can't?

If our universe is just a reaction in progress, I 'd imagine the animate entities in our universe are creating an infinite number of "big bangs" constantly.
 
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