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Definition of justice

stonerfromohio

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Apr 9, 2006
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Justice is action that takes into account a positive outcome for all parties involved and affected by the action without personal agenda that has ulterior motive other than for the good of all parties i.e. for the good of culture, nature and self. Justice is operating within the flow and harmony of the universe only outputting a positive ripple effect in the interconnected web of unending outcomes and possibilities, action not connoted with negative karma but instead only for the greater good of all sentient beings and the universe.

We had to determine what our view of justice was after reading Plato the republic and this is what I came up with. What's your definition of justice?
 
Does your perspective differ from straight-forward utilitarianism?
How might Socrates have come over and questions-trolled us? ;)

ebola
 
^ Actually my favourite thing Plato wrote was about Justice... I believe it was the Crito but I may be confusing it.

For me, Justice is more of a bad thing than it is good, and it has to do with my conception of the law.

Laws are a result of humanity's unwillingness to show compassion readily. The silly human needs to codify certain behaviours in order to become more efficient, therefore overlooking the important details.

Justice, being the automatic-enactment of law, is inherently flawed, and leaves no room for compassion. As much as I cannot stand Stalone, Judge Dredd is the perfect exaggeration of how I see justice. What is worse, is that the concept of Justice is based on the superfluous ideal of "fairness". Humans are not nearly as perfect as they think they are, and so are incapable of completely objective, impartial fairness, imo.
 
^ Wow, that's a different perspective on justice than I've heard before, Jam.

You know what it reminds me of? Another topic we've been discussing a lot in here: the Myers-Briggs test. A good number of the questions on the test went something like this:
"Would you take it as a greater compliment to be called fair, or compassionate?"

A question like this almost invites the False Dilemma Deconstruction Task Force, but nevertheless it made me think, because this seemed to be one of the main things the test uses to separate Ts (thinkers) from Fs (feelers).

I don't think it's any surprise to anyone who knows me here that I consider compassion a more worthwhile pursuit than justice (or even truth). My main justification for this is that compassion, as a goal, seems to me to be more consistent in its ability to ameliorate the human condition, for whomever it reaches. Justice may often have a longer reach than compassion. But it paints with broader, cruder strokes. Simply put, you can inadvertently hurt someone and create more pain in the world in the process of administering what you reason constitutes 'justice', whereas this is less of a risk if compassion is your guiding principle.

That said, I don't think justice and compassion are incompatible in the least. But I do think that asking someone to rank one as above the other will reveal a lot about how that person thinks and what drives them
 
^ I think the problem is that compassion necessarily requires one to overlook the law and become biased, two things that the ideal of fairness doesn't accept.

Lol @ FDDTF =D. I guess you do have a point with the Myers-Biggs test. I am INFP, so its no surprise.
 
My professors response to my definition of justice was:

On your definition of justice, I think the idea of harmony and the good of all persons fits really well with Socrates' definition (which we'll get to in the readings soon). One question that some might ask is whether the good of all parties outweighs the good of the individual in your definition. In the modern western world, we have a tradition of defining "justice" according to the rights and properties of individuals, but protecting the individual isn't always good for all parties, and can often produce discord rather than harmony.

I replied:


I completely agree Western society is an individualistic materialistic society that cares about the self before anything. In my opinion this is a worldview that creates way to many problems, when there are 300 million people living in America and the majority are operating soley out of interest for themselves it creates exactly what you said, discord. Every individual/group believes their values and worldview to be the correct one which in my opinion isnt true, as I believe each worldview holds various truths and various fallacy's so to claim that any school of thought, worldview, religion, philosophy is the absolute truth or ultimate way to salvation is incorrect. I dont believe that you can reach absolute truth, there is nothing static in the physical world, everything is in constant flunctuation and so many truths are ultimately subjective truths that only apply to the individuals rules that pertain to his or her worldview. As to the argument that self comes before group I completely disagree as would most of the eastern world because they hold family values and group to be more important than the self, even their religion reflects this worldview as they dont believe in souls and preach that in life their is suffering and that all your actions should be for the good of all sentient beings because the self is nonexistant we are but one faucet of consciousness in an interconnected web of infinite potential or novelty. I dont hold the Eastern or Western worldview as more truth than the other I think that these schools of thought should be transmuted together to form more of a "middle way" which is the true belief-model of buddhism which isnt considered a religion but more of a philosophy.
 
Dropping in quickly:

I think that compassion is more desirable than fairness, but fairness appears to be what I do extremely readily and efficiently. . .

I am also unhappy with every conception of ethics that I have come across (yet?). I think that fairness, and hell, most deontological ethical claims, crumble very easily. Utilitarianism holds some "gut" resonance, but it is not at all practical, and it still cannot answer its own "why".

ebola
 
With compassion in the left hand and judgement in the right the two are another manifestation of the masculine/feminine.

Is there no compassion in the existance of judgement? Is there no justice in compassion?
 
some related reading from Arkansas prepares to execute mentally ill inmate
Mahan Atma said:
Very briefly, here is a summary of the various theories behind criminal justice.

There are several main theories underlying the justifications for a system of criminal justice. They are as follows:

Retribution: This is based on the notion that a criminal "deserves" to be punished for the crime he commits.

Deterrence: This is based on the notion that we want to discourage people from committing crimes again in the future. There are two types -- "general deterrence" and "specific deterrence". General deterrence means you are trying to discourage the population at large from committing crimes. Specific deterrence means you are trying to discourage the offender you're locking up from committing another crime in the future.

Incapacitation: This is based on the notion that we want to lock people up to physically prevent them from committing another crime. You just want to remove them from the public areana, to keep them from being a danger to others.

Rehabilitation: This says that we want to use imprisonment to reform prisoners (and is not exclusive to the above theories, it really has more to do with what we do with the prisoners once we have them in prison).

The last three theories are known as "utilitarian" theories because they are based on the idea that we are imprisoning people in order to increase social utility (here, utility is gained in the form of decreasing crime). These sorts of theories were advocated by Jeremey Bentham and John Stuart Mill.

The retribution theory (advocated by Immanuel Kant) is sometimes called "deontology" or "a deontological theory". Don't get thrown by the fancy name. It's based on the notion that there is a duty or imperative to act morally, and that people who violate this duty must receive their "just desserts", and so on.

Now, what you need to understand is that what theory you adopt affects the question of how you should deal with a criminal.

For example, suppose I believe solely in deterrence. Then I would punish someone only in order to prevent further crimes. If it was possible to discourage people from committing murders merely by fining them $100, that would be enough. To do any more than that would be needlessly inflicting suffering on the criminal.

Conversely, a person who believes in retribution is more likely to want to give the murderer the death penalty because they "deserve" to be punish in proportion to the crime they've committed.

You don't like the first situation as much because you see it as "too easy" on the criminal. But this is not necessarily the case. Suppose that the only way you could discourage people from committing petty theft is by sentencing them to life in prison. Then a pure deterrence theory person would say that's exactly what you should do. On the other hand, a retribution theory person would probably say that a petty thief does not "deserve" life in prison merely for petty theft.

Those are a couple of extreme examples that make retribution look more sensible than deterrence, but you can imagine less extreme examples if you like.

Another situation where the theories differ is in the case of the retarded person, as I demonstrated above. If you believe solely in retribution, you would NOT lock up the retarded person for committing murder, because it isn't their fault they are retarded and they don't "deserve" to be locked up.

A person who believes only in specific deterrence probably wouldn't lock up the retarded person either, because the person is unlikely to respond rationally in the future, and hence unlikely to be deterred. In other words, if the retarded person is "too dumb" to understand that committing another crime will get them locked up again, it doesn't make any sense to lock them up in the first place.

On the other hand, a person who believes in incapacitation believes that it is necessary to lock the person up in order to protect society. (But you would still try to house the person humanely, because to treat them harshly would be to inflict needless suffering.)

A person who believes in general deterrence may or may not lock up the retarded person, depending on how they think society at large will respond. If society at large understands that we're only going to make a special exception for retarded people, but that anyone else will still get locked up for committing crimes, then you wouldn't lock up the retarded person.

Do you see how the theories operate differently in different situations? Note that depending on the situation, one theory may seem intuitively more sensible than another. Sometimes your "gut feeling" tells you that retribution makes more sense (as in the case of not wanting to sentence someone to life in prison for petty theft). But in other situations, like the retarded person, incapacitation seems to make more sense intuitively.
alasdair
 
Whenever I see something people call 'justice', it sure looks like Revenge/Retribution to me.
Justice creates unhappy victims.
On the other hand, what is 'Justice' where there is no 'free-will', no 'choice'?
 
stonerfromohio said:
My professors response to my definition of justice was:

I completely agree Western society is an individualistic materialistic society that cares about the self before anything. In my opinion this is a worldview that creates way to many problems, when there are 300 million people living in America and the majority are operating soley out of interest for themselves it creates exactly what you said, discord. Every individual/group believes their values and worldview to be the correct one which in my opinion isnt true, as I believe each worldview holds various truths and various fallacy's so to claim that any school of thought, worldview, religion, philosophy is the absolute truth or ultimate way to salvation is incorrect. I dont believe that you can reach absolute truth, there is nothing static in the physical world, everything is in constant flunctuation and so many truths are ultimately subjective truths that only apply to the individuals rules that pertain to his or her worldview. As to the argument that self comes before group I completely disagree as would most of the eastern world because they hold family values and group to be more important than the self, even their religion reflects this worldview as they dont believe in souls and preach that in life their is suffering and that all your actions should be for the good of all sentient beings because the self is nonexistant we are but one faucet of consciousness in an interconnected web of infinite potential or novelty. I dont hold the Eastern or Western worldview as more truth than the other I think that these schools of thought should be transmuted together to form more of a "middle way" which is the true belief-model of buddhism which isnt considered a religion but more of a philosophy.

My professor replied with this:

On your response to the individual rights tradition of justice, I think your response only applies to the extreme form of that view, where individual rights override all other senses of justice. That's a bit unfair, since many philosophers in that tradition consider individual rights as one of many equally important elements of justice. So there may be a balanced middle between the extremes.


On the issue of absolute truth, your view that no single view is correct and and that absolute truth is impossible is generally plausible, but depending on how you put it, it can become self contradictory. If you insist that everyone agree with this view, you end up asserting it as an absolutely correct, certain truth, which you've declared we cannot know. Likewise, your claims that "nothing is static...many truths are ultimately subjective...", etc. are highly contested, strong claims of truth that can't be taken for granted--there are thousands of years of philosophical and scientific history that challenge that view, so it's up for grabs too. Even your appeal to eastern and religious tradition -- the implied argument that if many historical traditions agree that community is more important it must be true assumes and asserts a strong truth claim that must be defended and which, if true, would be potentially at odds with your anti-absolute truth position.


So to avoid inconsistency, you'd have to rephrase it as a claim about the likelihood of certainty or absolute truth. But once you do that, you can no longer completely dismiss the views of those who seek absolute truth or certainty, since it's at least possible, even if arguably (and this claim has to be supported) improbable.


I think a stronger (because more modest and based on less controversial premises) argument for your view is that it's evidently true that we cannot _agree_ on what the truth is, in which case it's impractical to for everyone to insist that they're way is the truth, even if it may be so.


So, although there are a lot of great ideas in your presentation of your take on justice, and your criticisms of other views are strong, those with contrary views could make reasonable criticisms of many of your points, and many of your points would require a lot more defense. You may be close to the truth here, but be careful not to make it sounds as though you're presenting the absolute truth--as your own argument advises.
 
You can judge with compassion. By empathising with both sides, and explaining yourself properly, you can convince the victim not to take revenge and the wrong-doer to understand what it is they must learn during their punishment. Incarceration is the laziest form of justice as it seldom teaches the criminal anything. Punishment should be tailored to the individual and should avoid all instances of sympathy for the victim as this elicits vengeance and continued ill will.

The sympathy/empathy questions in the Myer-Briggs determine your F/J ratio, or rather the degree to which you can distance yourself from emotional situations.
 
ali said:

Any idea where I should look in Kant for his support of retribution? Seems a bit at odds with his whole deontological system.
...
Stoner: I think that I mostly agree with your prof...although i think that some of the points are put...a bit confusingly.

It is theoretically sound (upon first glance) to say that
1. The world exists as such.
2. It contains states of affairs.
3. These states of affairs may be described correctly or incorrectly.
4. Then truth is correct description.

It could just be that situations are so complex and change so rapidly that we just have trouble discovering truths and then assigning them to the right things. For this view to work, all subjective experiences would need be states of affairs.

(I do not endorse the above. ;))

ebola
 
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