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Decomposition of P. Somniferum alkaloids due to heat

hussness

hussness

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
513
So I've heard a bunch of stuff about how morphine decomposes if heated in boiling water for long enough. I've looked it up and morphine decomposes at 250 degrees C (well above the temperature of boiling water), but Merck lists "Opium Granulated" as opium dried not above 70 degrees.
So what's the real answer as far as decomposition of opium alkaloids?
 
There are many different alkaloids morphine being only one. Some are damaged and others can withstand some heat
 
So which ones are damaged and which ones can withstand heat? I'm really only interested in the answers for morphine, codeine, and thebaine.
 
When you look for an info on the effect of heat on a substance, most websites on chemical substance say the Boiling Point Temperature and the Melting Point Temperature.

Is it the Melting Point temperature that indicates the temperature that decomposes the substance? Or is it something else?

Does anyone have the boiling and melting temp of Morphine, Codeine, Thebaine, Papaverine, Noscapine and the other alkaloids in Opium?
 
The rule when 'cooking' opium to 'clean' it is to never heat the opium over 170 farenheit.
 
Generally when a substance decomposes readily upon heating before melting or boiling literature sources will replace the m.p. or b.p. with "decomposes upon heating to blah blah temperature" or something like that. The presence of a value for m.p. or b.p. generally indicates that the substances doesn't appreciably decompose before reaching that temperature/phase transition.
Here's the information I've found from Merck 11 Ed.:

Morphine:
dec 254, also a metastable phase, mp 197. High melting form sublimes at 190-200 (0.2 mm pressure at 2 mm distance).
Monohydrate: dec 254-256 with rapid heating.

Morphine HCl:
mp about 200 (dec).

Morphine Sulfate:
mp about 250 with decompn when anhydr.

Codeine:
m.p. 154-156 (after drying at 80).
Hydrobromide, dihydrate, crystals. Anhydr, mp 190-192.
Hydrochloride, mp at about 280 with some decomposition.

Thebaine:
sublimation at 170-180 under atmospheric pressure and a 1 mm distance. mp 193 (rapid heating).

Papaverine:
Sublimes at 135-140 at 11 mm pressure and 2 mm distance.
Hydrochloride:
mp 220 - 225.

Noscapine:
mp 176. Sublimes at 150-160 under 11 mm pressure at 2 mm distance.
Salts formed with acids are dextrorotatory and unstable in water.

None of the above information seems to indicate that these alkaloids, except for maybe noscapine, which I don't really care about, are unstable in boiling water. So is all this information about decomposition in boiling water that I hear just a bunch of junkie myths?
 
Pharaoh Sphinx said:
The rule when 'cooking' opium to 'clean' it is to never heat the opium over 170 farenheit.
Click to expand...

^Any scientific sources for that?
 
hussness said:
^Any scientific sources for that?
Click to expand...


Nope. Its the generally accepted practice amongst the opium cooking knowledge collective as far as ive seen.


Theres really no need to go any higher than that anyways, is there? Are you trying to purify latex or make tea??
 
I'm not trying to do anything. It's a matter of curiosity...and my curiosity still isn't satisfied...
 
I got into a long argument on the shroomery....where a gentleman claimed that boiling poppy tea 'ruins' it. He was never able to prove it...his main argument was Meconic acid narcotine decompose when boiled...and since morphine forms salts with mecromic acid...it is 'damaged.' I'm not sure where the narcotine fits into it. His argument never made much sense to me, and I gave up. The BPs for all of the major opium alkaloids are way above that of water.

I boil my poppy tea forever, makes it much more potent.

That, combined with the lack of anything 'scientific' to suggest that these alkaloids are delicate in boiling water...I'd say the don't break down due to 'reasonable' heat.

Not to mention, opium is commonly smoked...and much less is used than an oral dose.
 
Narcotine is a minor alkaloid of opium and may well decompose in boiling water (I have no idea). As for meconic acid, it may also decompose in boiling water, but decomposition of the acid part of a salt makes fuck all difference to the basic part. After all, if you heat amine carbonates, the carbonate decomposes into carbon dioxide and water, but this has no effect on the amine (it simply becomes freebase amine).

MGS - I think the arguement you had with someone at the Shroomery was just another case of a member of that forum having his head well and truely up his arse (and no doubt I'll get called worse that shit by other people there for being 'so negative maaaaaaan'! Like I care; I'd rather be correct than 'cool' by their standards)
 
hussness said:
Morphine:
dec 254, also a metastable phase, mp 197. High melting form sublimes at 190-200 (0.2 mm pressure at 2 mm distance).
Monohydrate: dec 254-256 with rapid heating.

Morphine HCl:
mp about 200 (dec).

Morphine Sulfate:
mp about 250 with decompn when anhydr.

Codeine:
m.p. 154-156 (after drying at 80).
Hydrobromide, dihydrate, crystals. Anhydr, mp 190-192.
Hydrochloride, mp at about 280 with some decomposition.

Thebaine:
sublimation at 170-180 under atmospheric pressure and a 1 mm distance. mp 193 (rapid heating).

Papaverine:
Sublimes at 135-140 at 11 mm pressure and 2 mm distance.
Hydrochloride:
mp 220 - 225.

Noscapine:
mp 176. Sublimes at 150-160 under 11 mm pressure at 2 mm distance.
Salts formed with acids are dextrorotatory and unstable in water.
Click to expand...

Are all the temperatures in Farhenheit or Degrees (°C)??
I think it's all °C, but I prefer to ask before saying something...
 
Does anyone know what temperature you can reach when you make some water boil?
(the water boils at 100°C, but a much higher temperature is reached I think...)
 
Water boils at 100 degrees C 760 torr (atmospheric pressure). This means that whatever water is still in liquid phase will be at 100 degrees, and whatever is dissolved in the water will have the same temperature (assuming uniform distribution of heat).
Exceptions to that include high altitude (lower pressure --> lower b.p.) and higher pressure --> higher b.p. (an example of this would be a pressure cooker).
 
I've been interested in finding out about this as well. I've heard many claims, especially in various CWE-instructions, that the water musn't be too hot since the codeine will decompose, the claim has never been accompanied by a reference though. Also, Chromic's Coldwater Codeine Extraction calls for boiling off water containing codeine to reduce volume. This would mean it reaches a temperature of at least 100C (it doesn't say whether a water bath is used) for several hours, and the remaning product feels like codeine he says.

I do have a question on the decomposition of codeine phosphate that I'm hoping someone can answer. In Merck it says the following of codeine phosphate hemihydrate and sesquihydrate:


Derivative Type: Hemihydrate
Properties: (U.S.P.), fine, white, needle-shaped crystals or cryst powder. Odorless; affected by light. Solns acid to litmus. Freely sol in water; very sol in hot water; slightly sol in alcohol; more sol in boiling alcohol.

Derivative Type: Sesquihydrate
Properties: Very efflorescent, small crystals or cryst powder. One gram dissolves in 2.3 ml water, 0.5 ml water at 80°, 325 ml alcohol, 125 ml boiling alcohol, 4500 ml chloroform, 1875 ml ether. pH of a 2% aq soln: 4.6. Keep well closed.

(Boldface of "Properties"-text added)

Does this mean that codeine phosphate decomposes by exposure to light, or that the smell is affected by light or something completely different?
 
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