d-MDMA & l-MDMA

[johnboy]

from the MAPS mailing list:

(*) If I am informed right, even the MDMA salt itself does exist in two forms, which each have a different psychoactive effect: d-MDMA which is more energetic and l-MDMA which is more a 'relaxed entactogen'. When MDMA is made from pure synthetic percursors and not separated one gets a mixture (dl-MDMA) or 'racemic' MDMA. I have no idea if one of the underground methods to produce MDMA in a 'half synthetic' way, i.e. from essential plant oils, results in l-MDMA as final product. If so, then there may exist a whole spectrum of different MDMA's (from pure d to dl to pure l) MDMA, which each have other risk levels.

this would explain a lot wouldn't it?
any ideas on this one anyone?
------------------
"i think i'll stick to drugs to get me thru the long, dark night of late-capitalism..."
Irvine Welsh

 

[Vune]

I can say that this shocks me.
How many different types of MDxx is there?
And how can I get my hands on each type!!!!
Johnboy, we are all grateful for research.

 

[entropope]

yeah any non polar (basically non-symmetrical) molecule will have enantiomers I think.
So yeah MDMA would aye.
Dunno what the effects of the different rotations would be, sometimes there is little difference, sometimes heaps.
If you get some pure powder and put it into some dionised water, and shine UV light thru it, you should get different colours for the different enantomers. But I'd say it's produced as racemic. Should be some info around on this. Sorry I don't have the time atm, maybe in a month

Chuck a handful of salt in this post cause I'm mostly making (educated) guesses here
[This message has been edited by entropope (edited 30 May 2000).]

 

[j_swift]

from what i can tell(more educated guessing) you would get a 50/50(racemic) mix of both enantomers or 100% or either the left or right enantomer from the synthesis.
you wouldn't get a 25%/75% mix from a synthesis. ther only way of doing would be if you took known amounts of the L and R enantomers and mixed them together to get a 25%/75% ratio or whatever you wanted.
the following is paragraph is conjecture on my part
i was also under the impression that all biological proteins and amino acids are L enantomers. does it follow that if all your constituents are L enantomers or non-polarised your product will also be L?

 

[Mr. Sticky]

Thanks for the info, johnboy.
See, I can get along with people.

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This is one of those times I have nothing to say.

 

[BigTrancer]

Just a quick footnote:

With MDMA, the usual assignments of activity to optical isomers is reversed from all of the known psychedelic drugs. The more potent isomer is the "S" isomer, which is the more potent form of amphetamine and methamphetamine. This was one of the first clear distinctions that was apparent between MDMA and the structurally related psychedelics (where the "R" isomers are the more active). Tolerance studies also support differences in mechanisms of action. In one study, MDMA was consumed at 9:00 AM each day for almost a week (120 milligrams the first day and 160 milligrams each subsequent day) and by the fifth day there were no effects from the drug except for some mydriasis. And even this appeared to be lost on the sixth day. At this point of total tolerance, there was consumed (on day #7, at 9:00 AM) 120 milligrams of MDA and the response to it was substantially normal with proper chronology, teeth clench, and at most only a slight decrease in mental change. A complete holiday from any drug for another 6 days led to the reversal of this tolerance, in that 120 milligrams of MDMA had substantially the full expected effects. The fact that MDMA and MDA are not cross-tolerant strengthens the argument that they act in different ways, and at different sites in the brain.

Source: Shulgin, A., "PiHKAL": (#109 MDMA) Extensions and Commentary paragraph 2.
BigTrancer

 

[entropope]

r isomers s isomers
hmmmmmm
I'll have to look up my 1st year chem file to remember which is which
worth doing, but......where the fuck is that file?

 

[tranquilo]

this is way way too interesting to let slide
...quality of mdma, why and how is it different
*bump*

 

[Biscuit]

MDMA made in the labs will almost always be racemic, approx 50-50.
The reason is that the precursor safrole does not exist as enanitomers, there is only one possible configuration, none or this d/l, r/s crap.
Hence if the synth is followed through they'll will always be a racemic mixture present.
The chemist would only get one type if he/she intentionally separated the enantiomers at some point which is doubtful as its unecessary.
You get pure d/l enantiomers usually when ur starting material is only one, e.g:
d-pseudoephedrine ->> d-methamphetamine

 

[Acid_Reign]

I remember with the urine post on hive

the guys on their were saying that the only MDMA in your urine was l-MDMA and that it was no good. It may do something but the impression they gave was that you wanna be having d-MDMA

 

[DorkessS]

ummmm, the jargon is turning me on.
; )

 

[NiQu3LorD]

Really, this means nothing to the average user.
1. There are no tests which descriminate (Or at least available to the layeman)
2. By the time you've used enough to differentiate between the two and other stimulants (fat chance, it's hard enough getting a pure mdma pill example of any vein) your brain is fried to tears.
It's a good topic to discuss, no practicality, but something to research.
peace

 

[Soma]

this deserves a bump, in light of the HQ's, MDE vs MDMA yadda yadda blah blah, more info for your soul

 

[Tarsarlan]

One interesting point which I wanna know I read correctly:

Tolerance studies also support differences in mechanisms of action. In one study, MDMA was consumed at 9:00 AM each day for almost a week ... and by the fifth day there were no effects from the drug except for some mydriasis... (after the 7th day} A complete holiday from any drug for another 6 days led to the reversal of this tolerance, in that 120 milligrams of MDMA had substantially the full expected effects.

Does this mean after a 6 day break 120 milligrams of MDMA had the full effect? Doesn't work that way for me

...tho I havn't tried a 7-day bender, so maybe I should give that a shot

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-=Common Sense isn't all that common=-

 

[wikings]

The MA of MDMA (methylene-dioxy-meth-amphetamine) is meth amphetamine.
"The methamphetamine molecule exists in two different arrangements that are mirror images of each other, just as the right hand is a mirror image of the left hand. When there is a right-handed and left-handed form of the same molecule, chemists call them "D" and "L" forms. D-methamphetamine makes the brain more alert but has little effect on the heart and blood pressure. L-methamphetamine raises blood pressure and causes the heart to beat rapidly, but does not increase alertness very much"
http://www.streetdrugs.org/photo85.htm

 

[Soma]

Just because it has a molocule in it of a particular compound does mean that it will act in any way like that compound.
H2SO4?, Hydrogen by itself, Sulphur and Oxygen. Together = burnies. By themselves = blah. In dif combo's, dif again.
Cheers,
Me.

 

[wikings]

"the molecule (MDMA) quite closely resembles amphetamine itself. It has the same carbon skeleton and type of nitrogen substitution as methamphetamine."
Dr. Alexander Shulgin
Also the D & L effects are identicle.

 

[Soma]

...not wishing to labour a point, but because a substance has a particular molocule in its chemical make up, does not mean that the substance will have the effects of its individual molocules.
You are valid in saying that the meth molocule is there though!