• Philosophy and Spirituality
    Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Threads of Note Socialize
  • P&S Moderators: JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat

Consciousness - controller or controlled?

nAON

nAON

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Messages
2,885
Location
Yes please.
Forgive me if this thread is a bit nonsensical, i'm not too good at writing all about philosophy and all that.

Anyway, I was thinking about stuff like this - there's quite a bit of literature if you look deep enough, but basically, it explains that the brain makes decisions before we 'consciously' think about doing them. This got me thinking - if it isn't our thoughts being directly controlled by 'us', then could this mean that consciousness itself, the state of thought, is predetermined before we actually 'think' and realise it?
Would it be possible that our consciousness, rather than working as something that controls our actions, merely sits on top of them - that is, our brains automatically dictate our actions without our conscious minds actually interfering. It just so happens (or is made to happen) that our conscious state is made to be streamlined in with our actions and thoughts?
 
whats wrong with symbiosis ?
can you breath in without breathing out ?
can you breath out without breathing in ?
if there is a controller, who controls the controller ? what controls the controls of the control...
where does it ends if you only see things one way ? why not balance it with its opposite ?
who is in control of making babies ? are male or female in control ? cant it be both ?
are they in control or are they controlled by their genes ? cant it be both ?
are their genes controlled by natural selection or genetic mutation ? cant it be both ?
what goes around comes around imo
 
I try to be this like, mashed together self-sustainer of both. As if, rather, I were the act of observation.
 
I do think we are ultimately in control of our consciousness; but unless the unconscious becomes conscious in our mind then we're kind of just giving away that power that we do have. It seems like society has been structured to keep people unconscious and then make decisions for them.

If our thoughts are not controlled by us - this doesn't mean that they can't be; it may just be that at our current level of consciousness this is the way things are. Many people seem quite capable of directing their thoughts into the direction the want and then taking the steps to get there. Others may be pushed left and right like a leaf in the wind. I tend to float in all directions.
 
Our thoughts ARE us. Asking whether consciousness is controlled by or the controller of itself doesn't work. The brain makes decisions before we're consciously aware of it; this only entails a lower level of attention that is nonetheless part of the consciousness process. Just like animals (sentient) are still aware yet not, like humans, self-aware (sapient).
 
What arguments are those? I don't think are thoughts are ALL we are, but they're a part of it; they don't 'come from' some essence that is us, nor are they outside forces that permeate that essence.
 
Sappy_6794 said:
Sometimes I wonder if we are just a big game of Sims...
Click to expand...

its quite possible. if we had very very high powered computers, we'd want to simulate pretty much anything, including ourselves. a faithful simulation is in some senses, i.e. relating to information, which many now argue is the most fundamental concept to science, identical to thing it simulates.
 
nAON said:
Anyway, I was thinking about stuff like this - there's quite a bit of literature if you look deep enough, but basically, it explains that the brain makes decisions before we 'consciously' think about doing them. This got me thinking - if it isn't our thoughts being directly controlled by 'us', then could this mean that consciousness itself, the state of thought, is predetermined before we actually 'think' and realise it?
Would it be possible that our consciousness, rather than working as something that controls our actions, merely sits on top of them - that is, our brains automatically dictate our actions without our conscious minds actually interfering. It just so happens (or is made to happen) that our conscious state is made to be streamlined in with our actions and thoughts?
Click to expand...

I think you're on the right track there. Our thoughts aren't directly controlled by us. A lot goes on in-between the mind and the brain.

What the results of that study suggest to me is that awareness (what you seem to have called consciousness here) and intent are separate things in communication with each other. Think of it like programs running on your computer: awareness is your web browser, which displays information to the user (your "consciousness", or what I consider the authentic self), and intent is your command panel for controlling what you see. Between issuing a command and being aware of issuing that command -- this is way before actually seeing the result of the command, by the way -- there is a period of time that is longer than zero.

Another computer metaphor would be sending yourself an email or IM: say I'm really lazy (true story btw) and I write a message telling myself that there's a pile of laundry that needs washing and I should really get to it some time today, and hit send (outgoing intent). That email doesn't appear in my inbox (become a part of my awareness) instantly, it takes a second or two - but the moment I hit that send button (intent before the awareness), electrons started flying around in my computer (neurons firing before awareness). And of course, it's only after I get the email that I will begrudgingly comply with my own request (go perform the task) and run a load in the washer.
 
If I (or someone with genuine credibility) sent you e-mails suggesting you do certain things which would have positive benefits for you would you follow those instructions ?
No ? Thought not.
Is your trick merely a manifestation of procrastination ?

Ninjadan hit the nail on the head with symbiosis.
 
Last edited:
Us being sims running on a supercomputer, I have been playing with this though alot of times with great fun. Given quantum mechanics and things disapairing and reapairing and strange behaviours the sim city idea doesnt sound impossible at all.

Given our brain uses nighttime to simulate all possible outcomes in near future to prevent itself from getting a brain-attack, tomorrow will most likely be used to try complete the tasks that our brain are working hard on by nighttime. I would then suggest that our subconsciousness atleast will stear us in certain directions without us noticing it to complete the tasks. Our conciousness however would then be the ability to manipulate the brain in the order we ourselves would like. What I am referring to here is almost sounding like there is a little "I" somewhere up in the brain trying to be me? Something like that.

I believe we can determine our own thoughts and ideas anyway, if you cant you just need to try harder. Being a sim you definately can affect your choices as the point of the sim is doing it's own things, being affected by subconsciousness you still can override your own fears and make changes though it can be hard at times!

Your mind will release you - live forever - you always did!
 
jonathan haidt's "the emotional dog and its rational tail" (2001) explains why this takes place perfectly imo. You can read the paper here: http://www.nd.edu/~wcarbona/Haidt 2001.pdf

essentially, rational thought only takes place when one's intuitive response to a situation differs greatly from what one thinks. we react in accordance with our dispositions which are themselves generated and evolved through our every day observations and interactions with each other. people seldom affect their own dispositions because the ability to seriously and critically self reflect is a rare talent.

most of our reaction are automated. this is what is being observed in those brain scans. we only disconnect our autopilots when our intuitions are strongly challenged.
 
is the 'subconscious a savior or destroyer of the mind?' is another way of looking at it.

_________
emotions being played out from the subconscious will distract us from our surroundings and what we can access or take in. maybe giving a false sense of confidence distracting from what is actually occurring.
 
Last edited:
You make a pretty interesting observation of the separation between mind and biology, and that 'separation' is the first key and getting to know the problem a little bit better. The paragraph is stated with the assumption that there is first a separation to begin with so the natural assumption from there is to point out how consciousness and biology is interlinked, and how it is separate from our biology. Science, not philosophy, would better suit your query, I believe.

Any legit response from me would be a bit long-winded, as Im a fan of biology, physiology and psychology I can literally write you a 12 page essay, easily. However, besides asking you to think of the right questions to which you'll find answers more meaningful than that we can give you here, my very general opinion on the subject is a Nietszchian response: Biology serves us the consciousness that it needs to a) procreate b) grow stronger c) "Happiness is a straight line, a goal" d) "the body serves as an instrument, serving us needs to reduce the manifold (complex) to simple" and I surely wouldnt argue that the bodies complex biological functions need to be understood rationally in order for it to work.

I also have an absurd idea in that I believe each cell within our own body is "conscious", independent of us. As it is designed in morphology to assist it's function, consciousness, I believe, must exist in however limited basis that consciousness can be considered a consciousness. The need for it to do "work", (metabolize, excrete, etc.) is not possible without a minute amount of ethereal interjection.


Nietzsche+and+his+sister%252C+1899.JPG
 
Edvard Munch said:
However, besides asking you to think of the right questions to which you'll find answers more meaningful than that we can give you here, my very general opinion on the subject is a Nietszchian response: Biology serves us the consciousness that it needs to a) procreate b) grow stronger c) "Happiness is a straight line, a goal" d) "the body serves as an instrument, serving us needs to reduce the manifold (complex) to simple" and I surely wouldnt argue that the bodies complex biological functions need to be understood rationally in order for it to work.
Click to expand...

There is an insatiable need to fulfill the wants of the "ego", though, ones 'Superman' as Nietzsche dubbed it. To varying extents we all seek to satisfy this desire and most often that is done with speaking; we are liable to lose go crazy w/o being able to do so, and so planning or rehearsing routinely in the mind what more can be said on a subject(often sex), almost entirely to be known by another as correct, or portrayed a certain way; like clothing for the ego.

Personally I see Ego as separate from Mind which divides into the higher-mind and sub-thought. Ones Ego drive or Superman if allowed will lure them away from intelligent well planned choices, if only choices diverting from true potential. The Conscious higher-mind can only differentiate between what has been allowed or is acceptable to be presented, and what we are presented with is often accompanied by an emotional response on may levels from past interactions.

Perhaps I had a stint of aggressive, mean, math teachers through out grade-school: in such a scenario the chances are that if I allowed it, that I might very well have a great deal of anxiety towards math, and not be "very good" at math...because of my personal anxieties, my emotions on a subject have now dictated my level of intelligence.
 
Edvard Munch said:
I also have an absurd idea in that I believe each cell within our own body is "conscious", independent of us. As it is designed in morphology to assist it's function, consciousness, I believe, must exist in however limited basis that consciousness can be considered a consciousness. The need for it to do "work", (metabolize, excrete, etc.) is not possible without a minute amount of ethereal interjection.
Click to expand...

Absolutely I agree with this, but its too simple sounding. But it is the only reason I am not much more sick or likely alive, because of understanding how our cells are each a living organism, and they need meditation and consoling... Ourselves much the same being a "vessel" almost all made up of water and electrical impulse/response, our personal ability to control the activity and rate of life-span of particular cells is a very real thing, methinks.
 
nice to see you posting again, edvard. i hope you're doing well irl. check out the short paper i linked to, it's really awesome.
 
jonathan haidt's "the emotional dog and its rational tail" (2001)
Click to expand...

Wow, thanks L2R. From what I've read of it so far, this is a lucid, well-written paper on a subject that's typically abstruse and boring. A real gem.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top