red22
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2009
- Messages
- 1,200
My lack of further experience with pure harmaline derives from my having been engaged, since the time of the above research, in the study of harmaline combinations: harmaline-MDA, harmaline-TMA[1], harmaline-mescaline and others.
[1] TMA: trimethoxyamphetamine.
The Healing Journey: New Approaches to Consciousness. Claudio Naranjo, 1974. 4. Harmaline and the Collective Unconscious, p. 121
- I know people who are offering ayahuasca ceremony with MDMA. And I'm just kind of like, wow, that seems a bit far out there, and knowing the person's not a pharmacist or a doctor or anything, so I kind of found it to be a bit of a risky combination to start introducing people to, but do we know of any casualties from that combination?
- So, specifically with ayahuasca and MDMA, I have not found any reports of that...
Drug Interactions with Ayahuasca - The Good, the Bad & the Spiritual | Ben Malcolm (29:38ā30:22), Jul 19, 2021, EntheoNation (Lorna Liana)
I have tried very tiny amounts of MDMA (like 5mg) while on a modest dose of harmalas and even that felt like a fairly decent spike in blood pressure. It was okay, but I donāt want to experiment with it any further, I feel like it was a silly thing to do.
Bardy, 08/22/24, https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28919371#28919371
Yeah, below threshold doesnāt mean you wonāt feel anything though. Iām not sure where they get their threshold numbers, but I can often feel effects below threshold.
But yeah, it would have definitely made it more potent. It just felt like a slight speedy stimulation for quite a while.
I wouldnāt do it again though, not sure it was worth it. And itās a bit too risky for my liking
Bady, 9/27/24, https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28964370#28964370
Harmalas with weed just make weed less paranoia inducing and less sleepy. It basically feels like weed combined with a tiny amount of amphetamine or something.
Ketamine isnāt really potentiate by harmalas in my experience. If anything it just makes the experience feel a little better and more smooth, and maybe more stimulating. I never combined the two in large doses though so be careful.
I would be very careful combining 2cb.
Also, Iāve done about 5-10mg MDMA with harmalas and it felt significantly stronger than it would have by itself. I wouldnāt bother going any higher than that because I feel like the negative effects would start to really outweigh the positives. Negative effects include rapid heartbeat, muscle tension and anxiety to name a few. All these negatives occur at lower dosages in the absence of the positive effects as far as I can tell.
Bardy, 10/22/24, https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28995221#28995221
Over the summer I was mixing a lot of mdma with them and probably the only thing that saved me from the storm myself is that I already know I canāt handle amphetamines well so I was only taking like 25 mg at a time.
SpecialistAd8861, Sep 18, 2024, reddit
It potentiated it a lot more than I first noticed Iāll say that much; I ended up mixing the two for like 6 weeks through this summer, at least three or four days a week. It was my friends that had to point out I was starting to act like I was twacked again. Fr fr I wouldnāt recommend it unless youāre really into mdma, and even then tread very carefully (Sep 21, 2024)
First time I came face to face with God in any sort of lucid state was through blasts of dmt/harmala freebases mixed with dabs out of my cold starter roughly 5 hours into a 1/4 gram of mescaline; while listening to the Wu Wei stories vol. 1 by John redfern and Alan watts. (Sep 21, 2024)
Ok tonight I did an experiment and I took 20g-fresh of caapi WITH 80mg of mdma (the pill is tested with reagant). There were no negative symptoms and no potentiation noted. It was even weaker than normal. This leads me to believe that the combination is only dangerous when under full MAOI (or prior to it) and if you have waited a day or even 12 hours from full MAOI then you are perfectly fine.
PsychoKinesiS, 2014-12-26, https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21026615#21026615
Note: 20 grams of B. caapi is a very low dose. I think most people use at least 50 for ayahuasca.
I've combined rue with coke, 6-apb, various psychedelics, beer, benzos, amphetamines. Nothing bad has happened yet.
revive_iain_banks, Mar 10, 2024, https://www.reddit.com/r/harmalas/s/NcVGmfXO1u
Blog: Taking MDMA and a MAOI. Clandestine Chemistry. Aug 17, 2018
Cocaine:
Although B. caapi can be the sole ingredient of the tea[7], up to 100 different plants have been described as admixtures to ayahuasca. These plants contain a wide variety of psychotropic substances such as nicotine (from Nicotiana spp.), scopolamine (from Brugmansia spp.), caffeine (from Ilex guayusa and Paullinia yoco), cocaine (from Erythoxylum coca) and N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT, from Psychotria viridis and Diplopterys cabrerana)[2, 8.]
2. McKenna, D. & Riba, J. New World Tryptamine Hallucinogens and the Neuroscience of Ayahuasca. Curr. Top. Behav. Neurosci. doi:10.1007/7854_2016_472 (2017).
8. Ott, J. Pharmacotheon: entheogenic drugs, their plant sources and history (Natural Products Co, 1993).
The alkaloids of Banisteriopsis caapi, the plant source of the Amazonian hallucinogen Ayahuasca, stimulate adult neurogenesis in vitro. Morales-GarcĆa JA, de la Fuente Revenga M, Alonso-Gil S, RodrĆguez-Franco MI, Feilding A, Perez-Castillo A, Riba J. Sci Rep. 2017 Jul 13;7(1):5309. doi: 10.1038/s41598-017-05407-9 emphasis added
Guillermo: Weāre going to take a very strong preparation made of eight plants. Besides ayahuasca and chacruna, there will be toĆ© (datura), bobinsana, chay, coca, marosa, and piƱon blanco!
Visionary Ayahuasca: A Manual for Therapeutic and Spiritual Journeys. Jan Kounen. 2011 (A Good Drink, Peaceful)
I just recently, after 25 plus instances of combining Nardil with varying amounts of meth, [coke], crack and Ritalin, Iāve concluded that I perceive the effects of the RIs (cocaine, MPD) are blunted significantly while Releasers (amp, meth) are greatlyyyy and unstabily potentiated. I actually was just diagnosed with drug induced congestive heart failure at 27 after having a massive heart attack from combining a grain of rice sized piece of meth with Nardil while mildly drunk and in minor lyrica withdrawal. Moral of the story: it can turn on you and out of nowhere. Itās not worth the permanent damage. If anyone is interested in details I can provide them as well as link screenshots of the actually hospital paperwork.
The absolute nuts thing is, as reckless as this is, Iāve since smoke lots of crack while still taking the MAOI without any adverse reactions. Cocaine generally would MUCH sooner cause me debilitating levels of physical anxiety first.
No-Tap9133, Apr 25, 2024, reddit
Iāve used [methamphetamine] maybe 20 times, all with no issues, even at much larger doses than the last. The last time I used it in combination with nardil I had a heart attack at 27 and was diagnosed with congenital heart failure (May 22, 2024)
More reports of amphetamines with MAOIs: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28919078
SSRIs:
I should probably not mention this, but the most stupid thing was probably taking 30mg Citalopram in addition to 60mg [tranylcypromine] because I was wondering if I would even get Serotonin syndrome. That certainly didn't feel good. But aside from some nausea I didn't really have any adverse effects. Nothing serious and no myoclonus, either.
itsokaytowishtodie, May 29, 2023, reddit
Three clinical trials where serotonergic antidepressants were combined with MAOIs. Summaries from Grok:
Joffe, R. T., Bakish, D. 1994. Combined SSRI-moclobemide treatment of psychiatric illness. The Journal of clinical psychiatry, 55(1), 24ā25.
Study Details: This 5-week trial combined moclobemide with the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) sertraline or fluvoxamine in 11 patients.
Results: Eight out of 11 patients responded, and the combination was reportedly well-tolerated.
Adverse Events: Some reports of insomnia were noted, but no other significant adverse events were highlighted.
Hawley, C. J., Quick, S. J., Ratnam, S., Pattinson, H. A., McPhee, S. 1996. Safety and tolerability of combined treatment with moclobemide and SSRIs: a systematic study of 50 patients. International clinical psychopharmacology, 11(3), 187ā191. DOI: 10.1097/00004850-199609000-00005
Study Details: This 6-week trial involved 50 TRD patients treated with moclobemide combined with the SSRIs paroxetine or fluoxetine.
Results: The combination appeared efficacious for treating depression.
Adverse Events: There was a high rate of adverse events, many of which were severe, though specific events were not detailed in the summary.
Amsterdam, J. D., GarcĆa-EspaƱa, F., Rosenzweig, M. 1997. Clomipramine augmentation in treatment-resistant depression. Depression and anxiety, 5(2), 84ā90.
Study Details: This 6-week trial involved 27 patients with TRD. It compared:
āŖ MAOI (phenelzine, tranylcypromine, or isocarboxazid) + clomipramine (N=9),
āŖ Fluoxetine + clomipramine (N=11),
āŖ MAOI + conventional TCA (desipramine, amitriptyline, imipramine, or nortriptyline) (N=7).
Results: Response rates were low: 2 of 9 responded to MAOI + clomipramine, 4 of 11 to fluoxetine + clomipramine, and 3 of 7 to MAOI + conventional TCA.
Adverse Events: The MAOI + clomipramine combination was associated with more adverse events than the other groups, including several cases of serotonin syndrome.
Kanna:
High-mesembrine Sceletium extract (Trimesemineā¢) is a monoamine releasing agent, rather than only a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. Coetzee DD, LĆ³pez V, Smith C. J Ethnopharmacol. 2016 Jan 11;177:111-6. doi: 10.1016/j.jep.2015.11.034
So I had a trip last night, it was pretty good, tracers went absolutely mad,
QuickMight260, Sep 11, 2024, Re: Syrian rue with Kanna, (kannacuasca)
Kanna and harmala go together amazingly
HowlingElectric, Jun 27, 2024, Re: Kanna and shrooms + Syrian rue
He swears by it and he reports no bad side effects. He is still a regular for Kratom and Kanna but he buys much smaller quantities and along those, he buys like 300 mg of Harmala Freebase per week.
...
I have tried a couple times sniffing a small amount followed by insufflation of Kanna extracts with very good results too.
locoboy1990, Mar 11, 2024, Harmala Freebase Insufflation
No one has ever ODed from Kanna and Syrian rue nor will they likely ever.
Subsonic_harmonic, Jul 1, 2024, Re: Kanna and shrooms + Syrian rue
No it's okay, I have been taking kanna extract with my 30mg parnate and no adverse reactions so far, just don't want emotional blunting on my side either. My two cents.
Extension_Ad2683, Jun 22, 2022, https://www.reddit.com/r/MAOIs/s/SGhINHYQrX
I've tried kanna with harmine. It was the only time I got an effect from kanna.
In mental depression, new approaches could also combine both MAO inhibition and serotonin reuptake inhibition to increase extracellular 5-HT concentration at the synapses.
Structural Aspects of Monoamine Oxidase and its Reversible Inhibition. Johan Wouters. 1998. Current Medicinal Chemistry, vol. 5, #2, 136-162 (Conclusions and Perspectives, p. 159)
[1] TMA: trimethoxyamphetamine.
The Healing Journey: New Approaches to Consciousness. Claudio Naranjo, 1974. 4. Harmaline and the Collective Unconscious, p. 121
- I know people who are offering ayahuasca ceremony with MDMA. And I'm just kind of like, wow, that seems a bit far out there, and knowing the person's not a pharmacist or a doctor or anything, so I kind of found it to be a bit of a risky combination to start introducing people to, but do we know of any casualties from that combination?
- So, specifically with ayahuasca and MDMA, I have not found any reports of that...
Drug Interactions with Ayahuasca - The Good, the Bad & the Spiritual | Ben Malcolm (29:38ā30:22), Jul 19, 2021, EntheoNation (Lorna Liana)
I have tried very tiny amounts of MDMA (like 5mg) while on a modest dose of harmalas and even that felt like a fairly decent spike in blood pressure. It was okay, but I donāt want to experiment with it any further, I feel like it was a silly thing to do.
Bardy, 08/22/24, https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28919371#28919371
Yeah, below threshold doesnāt mean you wonāt feel anything though. Iām not sure where they get their threshold numbers, but I can often feel effects below threshold.
But yeah, it would have definitely made it more potent. It just felt like a slight speedy stimulation for quite a while.
I wouldnāt do it again though, not sure it was worth it. And itās a bit too risky for my liking
Bady, 9/27/24, https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28964370#28964370
Harmalas with weed just make weed less paranoia inducing and less sleepy. It basically feels like weed combined with a tiny amount of amphetamine or something.
Ketamine isnāt really potentiate by harmalas in my experience. If anything it just makes the experience feel a little better and more smooth, and maybe more stimulating. I never combined the two in large doses though so be careful.
I would be very careful combining 2cb.
Also, Iāve done about 5-10mg MDMA with harmalas and it felt significantly stronger than it would have by itself. I wouldnāt bother going any higher than that because I feel like the negative effects would start to really outweigh the positives. Negative effects include rapid heartbeat, muscle tension and anxiety to name a few. All these negatives occur at lower dosages in the absence of the positive effects as far as I can tell.
Bardy, 10/22/24, https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28995221#28995221
Over the summer I was mixing a lot of mdma with them and probably the only thing that saved me from the storm myself is that I already know I canāt handle amphetamines well so I was only taking like 25 mg at a time.
SpecialistAd8861, Sep 18, 2024, reddit
It potentiated it a lot more than I first noticed Iāll say that much; I ended up mixing the two for like 6 weeks through this summer, at least three or four days a week. It was my friends that had to point out I was starting to act like I was twacked again. Fr fr I wouldnāt recommend it unless youāre really into mdma, and even then tread very carefully (Sep 21, 2024)
First time I came face to face with God in any sort of lucid state was through blasts of dmt/harmala freebases mixed with dabs out of my cold starter roughly 5 hours into a 1/4 gram of mescaline; while listening to the Wu Wei stories vol. 1 by John redfern and Alan watts. (Sep 21, 2024)
Ok tonight I did an experiment and I took 20g-fresh of caapi WITH 80mg of mdma (the pill is tested with reagant). There were no negative symptoms and no potentiation noted. It was even weaker than normal. This leads me to believe that the combination is only dangerous when under full MAOI (or prior to it) and if you have waited a day or even 12 hours from full MAOI then you are perfectly fine.
PsychoKinesiS, 2014-12-26, https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21026615#21026615
Note: 20 grams of B. caapi is a very low dose. I think most people use at least 50 for ayahuasca.
I've combined rue with coke, 6-apb, various psychedelics, beer, benzos, amphetamines. Nothing bad has happened yet.
revive_iain_banks, Mar 10, 2024, https://www.reddit.com/r/harmalas/s/NcVGmfXO1u
Blog: Taking MDMA and a MAOI. Clandestine Chemistry. Aug 17, 2018
Cocaine:
Although B. caapi can be the sole ingredient of the tea[7], up to 100 different plants have been described as admixtures to ayahuasca. These plants contain a wide variety of psychotropic substances such as nicotine (from Nicotiana spp.), scopolamine (from Brugmansia spp.), caffeine (from Ilex guayusa and Paullinia yoco), cocaine (from Erythoxylum coca) and N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT, from Psychotria viridis and Diplopterys cabrerana)[2, 8.]
2. McKenna, D. & Riba, J. New World Tryptamine Hallucinogens and the Neuroscience of Ayahuasca. Curr. Top. Behav. Neurosci. doi:10.1007/7854_2016_472 (2017).
8. Ott, J. Pharmacotheon: entheogenic drugs, their plant sources and history (Natural Products Co, 1993).
The alkaloids of Banisteriopsis caapi, the plant source of the Amazonian hallucinogen Ayahuasca, stimulate adult neurogenesis in vitro. Morales-GarcĆa JA, de la Fuente Revenga M, Alonso-Gil S, RodrĆguez-Franco MI, Feilding A, Perez-Castillo A, Riba J. Sci Rep. 2017 Jul 13;7(1):5309. doi: 10.1038/s41598-017-05407-9 emphasis added
Guillermo: Weāre going to take a very strong preparation made of eight plants. Besides ayahuasca and chacruna, there will be toĆ© (datura), bobinsana, chay, coca, marosa, and piƱon blanco!
Visionary Ayahuasca: A Manual for Therapeutic and Spiritual Journeys. Jan Kounen. 2011 (A Good Drink, Peaceful)
I just recently, after 25 plus instances of combining Nardil with varying amounts of meth, [coke], crack and Ritalin, Iāve concluded that I perceive the effects of the RIs (cocaine, MPD) are blunted significantly while Releasers (amp, meth) are greatlyyyy and unstabily potentiated. I actually was just diagnosed with drug induced congestive heart failure at 27 after having a massive heart attack from combining a grain of rice sized piece of meth with Nardil while mildly drunk and in minor lyrica withdrawal. Moral of the story: it can turn on you and out of nowhere. Itās not worth the permanent damage. If anyone is interested in details I can provide them as well as link screenshots of the actually hospital paperwork.
The absolute nuts thing is, as reckless as this is, Iāve since smoke lots of crack while still taking the MAOI without any adverse reactions. Cocaine generally would MUCH sooner cause me debilitating levels of physical anxiety first.
No-Tap9133, Apr 25, 2024, reddit
Iāve used [methamphetamine] maybe 20 times, all with no issues, even at much larger doses than the last. The last time I used it in combination with nardil I had a heart attack at 27 and was diagnosed with congenital heart failure (May 22, 2024)
More reports of amphetamines with MAOIs: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28919078
SSRIs:
I should probably not mention this, but the most stupid thing was probably taking 30mg Citalopram in addition to 60mg [tranylcypromine] because I was wondering if I would even get Serotonin syndrome. That certainly didn't feel good. But aside from some nausea I didn't really have any adverse effects. Nothing serious and no myoclonus, either.
itsokaytowishtodie, May 29, 2023, reddit
Three clinical trials where serotonergic antidepressants were combined with MAOIs. Summaries from Grok:
Joffe, R. T., Bakish, D. 1994. Combined SSRI-moclobemide treatment of psychiatric illness. The Journal of clinical psychiatry, 55(1), 24ā25.
Study Details: This 5-week trial combined moclobemide with the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) sertraline or fluvoxamine in 11 patients.
Results: Eight out of 11 patients responded, and the combination was reportedly well-tolerated.
Adverse Events: Some reports of insomnia were noted, but no other significant adverse events were highlighted.
Hawley, C. J., Quick, S. J., Ratnam, S., Pattinson, H. A., McPhee, S. 1996. Safety and tolerability of combined treatment with moclobemide and SSRIs: a systematic study of 50 patients. International clinical psychopharmacology, 11(3), 187ā191. DOI: 10.1097/00004850-199609000-00005
Study Details: This 6-week trial involved 50 TRD patients treated with moclobemide combined with the SSRIs paroxetine or fluoxetine.
Results: The combination appeared efficacious for treating depression.
Adverse Events: There was a high rate of adverse events, many of which were severe, though specific events were not detailed in the summary.
Amsterdam, J. D., GarcĆa-EspaƱa, F., Rosenzweig, M. 1997. Clomipramine augmentation in treatment-resistant depression. Depression and anxiety, 5(2), 84ā90.
Study Details: This 6-week trial involved 27 patients with TRD. It compared:
āŖ MAOI (phenelzine, tranylcypromine, or isocarboxazid) + clomipramine (N=9),
āŖ Fluoxetine + clomipramine (N=11),
āŖ MAOI + conventional TCA (desipramine, amitriptyline, imipramine, or nortriptyline) (N=7).
Results: Response rates were low: 2 of 9 responded to MAOI + clomipramine, 4 of 11 to fluoxetine + clomipramine, and 3 of 7 to MAOI + conventional TCA.
Adverse Events: The MAOI + clomipramine combination was associated with more adverse events than the other groups, including several cases of serotonin syndrome.
Kanna:
High-mesembrine Sceletium extract (Trimesemineā¢) is a monoamine releasing agent, rather than only a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. Coetzee DD, LĆ³pez V, Smith C. J Ethnopharmacol. 2016 Jan 11;177:111-6. doi: 10.1016/j.jep.2015.11.034
So I had a trip last night, it was pretty good, tracers went absolutely mad,
QuickMight260, Sep 11, 2024, Re: Syrian rue with Kanna, (kannacuasca)
Kanna and harmala go together amazingly
HowlingElectric, Jun 27, 2024, Re: Kanna and shrooms + Syrian rue
He swears by it and he reports no bad side effects. He is still a regular for Kratom and Kanna but he buys much smaller quantities and along those, he buys like 300 mg of Harmala Freebase per week.
...
I have tried a couple times sniffing a small amount followed by insufflation of Kanna extracts with very good results too.
locoboy1990, Mar 11, 2024, Harmala Freebase Insufflation
No one has ever ODed from Kanna and Syrian rue nor will they likely ever.
Subsonic_harmonic, Jul 1, 2024, Re: Kanna and shrooms + Syrian rue
No it's okay, I have been taking kanna extract with my 30mg parnate and no adverse reactions so far, just don't want emotional blunting on my side either. My two cents.
Extension_Ad2683, Jun 22, 2022, https://www.reddit.com/r/MAOIs/s/SGhINHYQrX
I've tried kanna with harmine. It was the only time I got an effect from kanna.
In mental depression, new approaches could also combine both MAO inhibition and serotonin reuptake inhibition to increase extracellular 5-HT concentration at the synapses.
Structural Aspects of Monoamine Oxidase and its Reversible Inhibition. Johan Wouters. 1998. Current Medicinal Chemistry, vol. 5, #2, 136-162 (Conclusions and Perspectives, p. 159)
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