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Christian (especially Catholic and Orthodox) do you believe in the real presense?

B

burn out

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As you should be familiar with, both the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church teach that the sacrament of the Eacharist contains the real presense of Christ after it has been consecrrated. Although it maintains the out appearance of bread, or wine, it has changed in a mysterious way and become the body (or blood) of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now I think some protestant demoninations believe this also, but others do not and think it is just metaphoric. What do you guys think? This for me its one of the most difficult teachings of the Catholic church to believe.

Just to give an idea of where I am coming from, I grew up atheist but then discovered the spirit world on psychedelics. LSD helped me to connect to Jesus and I felt like I was being drawn to the Catholic Church (something I never could have imagined in my wildest dreams, ever after I wasn't atheist any more). But I am now in the process of becoming catholic.

I dont necessarily believe everything the church teaches, and I would say that my beliefs are basically those of Advaita Vedanta Hinduism. So i believe in reincarnation and non duality. However, when it comes to spiritual practices (like meditation and prayer) this is where I feel inexplicibly drawn to the Catholic Church and Catholic spirituality. I feel like Catholic prayers as well as attending Mass has given me a tremendous amount of spiritual growth and I intend to become a practising and devout catholic now, all as a result of some LSD trips. The one teaching I am strugglign with though, is the Eucharist. Its not that I dont have faith, I have a lot of faith in Jesus and his teachings. But it is difficult for me to beleive that the bread and wine actually become his body and blood at each Mass.
 
I see it as metaphorical, but the church I've recently started attending is protestant, and progressive. We don't even do the Eucharist regularly. My family is involved in the local Catholic church, so I hear too much about the drama that goes on, and too many bad vibes. I also dislike much of the Roman church's doctrines, not to mention the Pope, though I have been known to read some of the stuff from certain Saints (which can be quite useful, as you indicated).
 
^Don't worry rangrz, there's still hope for you yet, you can beat this and get better.

Have some Byron to lift your spirits:
NSFW:

My boat is on the shore,
And my bark is on the sea;
But, before I go, Tom Moore,
Here's a double health to thee!

Here's a sigh to those who love me,
And a smile to those who hate;
And, whatever sky's above me,
Here's a heart for every fate.

Though the ocean roar around me,
Yet it still shall bear me on;
Though a desert should surround me,
It hath springs that may be won.

Were't the last drop in the well,
As I gasp'd upon the brink,
Ere my fainting spirit fell,
'Tis to thee that I would drink.

With that water, as this wine,
The libation I would pour
Should be -peace with thine and mine,
And a health to thee, Tom Moore!
 
Yes I believe in the real presence, and by combining the bread and wine a yoga or an ark is completed in an attempt to create a state of transcendence, which is where the spirit of Christ dwells, or where his or the cosmic consciousness becomes accessible.
 
The Catholic Church focuses alot on tradition and ritual, so if all you want is Jesus Christ, you would perhaps feel more comfortable at a Protestant church.
 
Don't worry rangrz, there's still hope for you yet, you can beat this and get better.
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Such lofty attitudes are just as repulsive as the one that you intend to deprecate. Unless someone is clearly languishing in the pits of despair, they are not in any particular need of being offered your 'hope' (not that I would advocate such a thing in the first place).
 
Never Knows Best said:
I see it as metaphorical, but the church I've recently started attending is protestant, and progressive. We don't even do the Eucharist regularly. My family is involved in the local Catholic church, so I hear too much about the drama that goes on, and too many bad vibes. I also dislike much of the Roman church's doctrines, not to mention the Pope, though I have been known to read some of the stuff from certain Saints (which can be quite useful, as you indicated).
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Maybe you'll find these books interesting: http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html
 
P A said:
Such lofty attitudes are just as repulsive as the one that you intend to deprecate. Unless someone is clearly languishing in the pits of despair, they are not in any particular need of being offered your 'hope' (not that I would advocate such a thing in the first place).
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I didn't think the old "I'm rubber and you're glue" routine would trip you up PA. I'll take that to mean my returning rangrz trolling completely outclassed him, as determined by an impartial observer.
 
Except I lol'd and thought "well played anon, well played" and did not feel trolled, making the concept of returning my trolling kind of moot. ;)

Never the less, I stand by my idea that if LSD Took a man from the rational position of atheism and made him to a wingnut who's Hindu integrated with a Catholic, who is seriously asking an absurd question about if a man in a dress mutters words while you drink wine, does the wine turn into the blood of a supposed 2000 year dead zombie, then LSD is definitely harmful.
 
^I hoped you'd feel that way, some people do take offense at jokes though.

Never the less, I stand by my idea that if LSD Took a man from the rational position of atheism and made him to a wingnut who's Hindu integrated with a Catholic, who is seriously asking an absurd question about if a man in a dress mutters words while you drink wine, does the wine turn into the blood of a supposed 2000 year dead zombie, then LSD is definitely harmful.
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Ah, but consider a hypothetical person who was a severely emotionally/psychologically dysfunctional rationalist, who later attained decent mental health at the expense of developing such an irrational belief system (and let us say that psychedelic use was largely responsible for this). Have they been harmed, or helped?
 
I didn't think the old "I'm rubber and you're glue" routine would trip you up PA
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"I'm rubber and you're glue" /= counter-trolling. So you've either failed at one or botched the other. I'm not confused. Are you?

Ah, but consider a hypothetical person who was a severely emotionally/psychologically dysfunctional rationalist, who later attained decent mental health at the expense of developing such an irrational belief system (and let us say that psychedelic use was largely responsible for this).
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I've never met such a person. It seems clear that the root causes of most or all of the psychological benefits obtained by way of religious practice are indistinguishable from those obtained by, say, fascism. A sense of community, of belonging; perceived redemption for past misdeeds through vindication in the name of a higher cause; etc. I highly doubt that instilling the belief that one is drinking zombie blood is a particularly useful psychotherapeutic modality in the treatment of most mental disorders. But hey, what do I know?

And even if that were to be the case (that is, that accepting wild metaphysical propositions without question is, in and of itself, psychologically agreeable), what bearing could this possibly have on the question of whether critical thought should be abandoned in favor of some abstruse belief system? It just doesn't follow.
 
So noone is allowed to have religious beliefs? You cant be a hindu, buddhist, new ager? Can I believe that aliens created life or is that delusional too? Its like the ant in the ant farm who thinks that nothing exists outside of the farm.
 
You're *allowed* to have them, and I'm *allowed* to think you are a delusional moron for doing so.

It's called, -get this- "freedom of conscience" in my countrie's Constitution.

A belief in Aliens seeding life on Earth, while lacking evidence, is more rational and in principle at least, follows mechanistic naturalism.
 
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Fair enough. Now I know that there are 800 million Hindu and 500 million Buddhist morons in the world. I feel so much smarter now.
 
So noone is allowed to have religious beliefs? You cant be a hindu, buddhist, new ager?
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Anyone is allowed to have whatever beliefs they damn well please. If I detect overt abuse or harassment, I'll be sure to correct it. On that note: Please tone it down, rangrz. [see below]

Can I believe that aliens created life or is that delusional too?
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To the extent that it's highly improbable and generally unfalsifiable, this belief fits most people's minimal criteria for nonsense. As far as I can detect, the only real reasons that religious beliefs don't qualify for similarly blatant mockery are A) Such beliefs (many of them mutually contradictory) are quite popular; and B) People's little feelings might get hurt.

Its like the ant in the ant farm who thinks that nothing exists outside of the farm.
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Actually, ants in a glass farm can rudimentarily detect and respond to perturbations coming from outside the farm, and can coordinate their behavior accordingly. In other words, in their own little ant way, they can 'see' (or at least 'perceive' in some way) their human overlords. Also, I feel compelled to remind you that ant farms are made of glass - so naturally, the ants can literally see us with ease one way or the other.

/failed analogy
 
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