Ceiling Dose? No way

[puddle.up]

Now, I know the theory of the ceiling dose that is apparently associated with codeine is a well over discussed topic, but I had to express my opinion on it.
I've been using codeine for a few years now, not too often, I usually limit myself to one dose a week, sometimes I'll dose a few more times, but sometimes I'll dose a few less, or none at all. So I am a consistent user, but not a heavy user.
Up until recently, I had always kept my dose to 600mg, it gave me the high I needed, and the tablets I buy have an even 600mg in a box, so it seemed logical, and keeping my dose lower will prevent an insane tolerance building up.
But this morning, I had a large supply, so I figured "fuck it, let's bump it up a bit and see what this ceiling dose is all about". So instead of taking my usual 600mg, I bumped it up to 840mg, and to sum it up.. WOW!
I was literally zonked, nodded quite a bit, and was just generally trolleyed. I haven't have such a nice opiate high since back in my oxy and heroin days. Now let me be clear, I am by NO means comparing heroin, or even oxy, to codeine, because it's apple and oranges, but the effects I got from an 840mg dose was hugely stronger than my usual 600mg.
It brings into question, for the millionth time, is the apparent "ceiling dose" for codeine a real thing? I know it's a theory, and the theory has merit, and I realise that even if there were a ceiling dose it would vary from person to person, but seriously, the high I got from 840mg was incredible, especially for a drug as subtle as codeine, so the apparent 400mg ceiling dose, or whatever it is, seems like far less probable to me now.

 

[Crankinit]

There's been a ton of discussion about this, a lot of anecdotal reports, and at the end the conclusion seemed to be that it varies from person to person. Which makes sense, we know some people have a huge CYP2D6 deficiency and get no effect at all from codeine, so it seems likely that different people have different levels of the CYP2D6 enzyme and, as such, a different ceiling dose.

I did the exact same as you, took my normal 600mg dose up to 900 or 1000, and yet noticed absolutely no difference. But I know plenty of people who I trust who say they get extra effects up to 1200mg, and others I also trust who say that it stops increasing in effect at 400.

It's also possible that the CWE is the issue. If someone does a dodgy CWE on 600mg, they might only end up consuming 450mg. Then they do the same dodgy CWE on 900mg, and because of the extra 300 included in the process, they get a full 600mg in the final solution and get a better high, seemingly breaking the ceiling dose. No idea if this is what happened with you because I have no idea what your CWE process is like, but it's a possibility.

 

[smokedup]

could there be simply varying ceiling doses for each individual?

 

[oldirtybizza]

Now let me be clear, I am by NO means comparing heroin, or even oxy, to codeine, because it's apple and oranges,

Well it could be a fair comparison as both codeine and heroin are metabolised into the same molecule which is morphine

 

[puddle.up]

Well it could be a fair comparison as both codeine and heroin are metabolised into the same molecule which is morphine

Yeah I'm aware that codeine is metabolised into morphine, so in a technical sense it could be a fair comparison, but in reality you could never expect the same feeling from a codeine high as you could from a heroin high.

That being said, if you appreciate and respect codeine for what it is, it's a very enjoyable substance, people shouldn't shrug it off

 

[drug_mentor]

^ Some of the best opiate highs I ever had in my life were on codeine when I was relatively opiate naive. I really don't think that it is fair to say you could never expect the same feeling from codeine as heroin, frankly when I started experimenting with codeine extractions I had used heroin once before and often found the codeine to be as enjoyable, perhaps even more so during a particularly good session. Obviously anyone with any degree of tolerance would have to be blessed with a very hard working CYP-2D6 enzyme to get effects on par with heroin or other strong opioids but I am sure it is possible for a lucky few.

I have found codeine does have somewhat of a ceiling, but that is not to say taking more does nothing. What I mean by that is that I believe at 400mg codeine (pretty sure 600mg codeine phosphate is 400mg codeine btw, could be wrong as it is a few years since I had much interest) is the maximum dose that the liver will metabolise 10% of the dose into codeine. However, there have been studies that show a lot of the analgesia caused by codeine is not created by the conversion of morphine to codeine but another metabolite of codeine known as codeine 6 glucuronide. I believe as you dose above 400mg of codeine the amount of morphine you are getting is essentially capped at 40mg, but the dose of codeine 6 glucuronide is still increasing. Whenever I would dose 600mg of codeine phosphate or less, I personally found the high to be more sedating than stimulating, but anytime I would dose above 600mg (I have certainly dosed over 800mg a good number of times and IIRC have approached about a gram once or twice) I start to find the high more stimulating and the histamine effects become more intense.

My days with codeine are pretty much over, it seems no matter how long I wait between dalliances with opiates my tolerance never reduces to the point I can get a reasonably strong effect from codeine and most times I drink a CWE it seems to upset my stomach to some extent, so I have pretty much written it off, which is a shame as I used to enjoy it immensely. From my extensive experimentation with codeine I have concluded that for most people the recreational ceiling is probably 400mg codeine (600mg codeine phosphate) but to say that the effects do not increase in any way with an increased dose is not accurate either.