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Cause of permanent tracers?

GFunk02

GFunk02

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I've heard a lot of people get these, especially after tripping on 2c-'s. Now I have some definite permanent tracers that i didnt notice before. I've tripped on acid over 70 times.. 2c-i/2c-b/2c-e about 40 times, and a few other trippy chemicals.

What permanent changes in the brain would cause such visual impairment? It doesn't really bother me and they aren't severe but its definately not normal.
 
I have chronic tracers, too. Someone once told me that it's caused by pupil dilation, and that the prolonged pupil dilation from psychedelics eventually makes tracers stay. Supposedly, a six month hiatus from tripping will make my vision normal again, but that certainly won't be happening anytime soon :)

This is just what someone told me, though. It might just be a myth or something.
 
Nothing to do with pupil dilation. Dilated pupils might make things appear slightly blurrier than usual, but they cannot cause tracers. A six month(or whatever) hiatus will probably remove the tracers. If you continue tripping, you may or may not experience other visual anomalies, which may or may not go away if you stop.

There's a theory about disinhibition in the visual processing centres of your brain, so that junk you would normally filter out makes it into consciousness. Fact is, no-one actually knows.

I realise this is all a bit vague, but this is not a well-understood area.
 
I understand it would be speculation if anything.

Is it known or theorized why we get tracers while on a psychedelic drug?
 
while on psychedelics? Hmm.... V1 Disinhibition doesn't cut it for me... that should cause poor line definition, but not tracers... I suppose a lack of control of thalamocrotical occilations to low-level visual centers could cause it... So some of the reticular nuclei 5-HT2A receptors could be to blame... But I still don't understand the occilations liturature... nor the thalamic control of cortical activation... so I don't really know.
 
There's a condition called hppd (hallucinogen persisting perception disorder) that causes you to see perminant tracers, hallucinantions etc..you may have a mild form of it, however psychologists with all their technical blabbery still dont know why it happens.

i have perminant tracers too...i got mine from solvents, i think that was just plain brain damage.
 
My thought on the matter always was that the persisting visuals were brought about by a spiritual change rather than an actual chemical/physical change to the brain. This is what most of the people I've talked to about it believe too. So basically, if a person had a psychedelic experience (or any experience) that was powerful enough, a part of that trip would stay with them forever. I'm willing to bet you've seen more than other people have.

stropharia said:
There's a theory about disinhibition in the visual processing centres of your brain, so that junk you would normally filter out makes it into consciousness. Fact is, no-one actually knows.
Click to expand...

I'm sure everyone's noticed all those blurry dots and shit that float across your vision constantly. The only other explanation I can think of for the persisting visuals is that the tracers are like those, we're so used to them that we've forgotten what they look like. Maybe tripping opened your mind up to seeing what other people had forgotten? Donno
 
I've got a pretty moderate to severe hppd as well. I've tripped on LSD, mushrooms, and many research chems (many 2c's included). After one experience with 5-meo-AMT and another overdose on 2C-I not long after, due to innacurate scales my condition became much more noticable. Check out some info on hppd at http://www.stormloader.com/hppd/ or http://hppdonline.com/index.php .

The essential feature of Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder (Flashbacks) is the transient recurrence of disturbances in perception that are reminiscent of those experienced during one or more earlier Hallucinogen Intoxications. The person must have had no recent Hallucinogen Intoxication and must show no current drug toxicity (Criterion A). This re-experiencing of perceptual symptoms causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning (Criterion B). The symptoms are not due to a general medical condition (e.g., anatomical lesions and infections of the brain or visual epilepsies) and are not better accounted for by another mental disorder (e.g., delirium, dementia, or Schizophrenia) or by hypnopompic hallucinations (Criterion C). The perceptual disturbances may include geometric forms, peripheral field images, flashes of color, intensified colors, trailing images (images left suspended in the path of a moving object as seen in stroboscopic photography), perceptions of entire objects, afterimages (a same-colored or complementary-colored "shadow" of an object remaining after the removal of the object), halos around objects, macropsia, and micropsia. The abnormal perceptions that are associated with Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder occur episodically and may be self-induced (e.g., by thinking about them) or triggered by entry into a dark environment, various drugs, anxiety or fatigue or other stressors. The episodes may abate after several months, but many persons report persisting episodes for 5 years or longer. Reality testing remains intact (i.e., the person realizes that the perception is a drug effect and does not represent external reality). In contrast, if the person has a delusional interpretation concerning the etiology of the perceptual disturbance, the appropriate diagnosis would be Psychotic Disorder Not Otherwise Specified.

Diagnostic criteria for Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder

A. The re-experiencing, following cessation of use of a hallucinogen, of one or more of the perceptual symptoms that were experienced while intoxicated with the hallucinogen (e.g., geometric hallucinations, false perceptions of movement in the peripheral visual fields, flashes of colors, intensified colors, trails of images of moving objects, positive afterimages, halos around objects, macropsia, and micropsia.

B. The symptoms in Criterion A cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

C. The symptoms are not due to a general medical condition (e.g., anatomical lesions and infections of the brain, visual epilepsies) and are not better accounted for another mental disorder (e.g., delirium, dementia, Schizophrenia) or hypnopompic hallucinations.

(All taken from http://hppdonline.com/index.php )
 
Good source and summary Synto.

http://hppdonline.com/index.php


To me it brings out the concept that it isn't something to "fear" about doing LSD.
Or really anything anti-drug. As much as it has to do with a typical person who does drugs and is under alot of stress.


The opening statement.....about the monitor and colors etc.
Represents everything from sleep deprivation, to stress.
Actually, all those explainations and examples seem common to me.....
Not anything adnormal.... but simply what its like to look threw the eyes of a mind that is at its limits/distressed etc.


Would be good to see, that this topic of hppd is regarded no different then the topic of depression.
A cause and effect, and generally due to stressors over time.

Not a "i tryed lsd once and been disabled for 10 years" type of thing.
 
^^ The problem with that is that there appears to be a limited but non-negligible number of people who get hardcore HPPD after a single dose (or within the first two-three doses). The number of people on www.hppdonline.com is testament to that.
 
I've got permanent tracers and I've never even done psycodelics, I've had them since the first time I ever did crystal.
 
This isn't exactly tracers, but I know that many slight visual disturbances such as dots, or disturbances that appear to be almost a liquid are in fact blood vessels in your eyes that are passing across your vision.
 
^the floaty jelly things are on your eyes and the dots, i assume, are just "static," similar to your fingers shaking, there simply aren't enough nerves to convey an entire full and steady picture from the eyes (or, from a certain part of the brain), or to hold the finger still

that's my theory/guess
 
^Actually, they are small proteins floating across the membranous tissue of your eyeball.
 
I'm interested in hearning more about why disinhibition of visual data is not a good explanation. Are you saying that the effect of such a disinhibition would be poor line definition? Why would that be the only effect, and why couldn't tracers be viewed as a symptom of such a problem?

And what about thalamocortical oscillations. Would that entail some sort of overriding of action potentials that would normally lead to re-uptake...or some other inhibition (somewhere in the visual system)?

I'm shaky on my neurochemistry, but do you know what I'm asking?

Does the raphe nuclei (is that term still in use?), become damaged somehow?

Plus, how do you account for long-term effect?
 
The wiring in the primary visual cortex is pretty well understood, it's there to pick out areas of contrast, or to increase contrast, the old "center-surround inhibition" theme, but instead of the simple points of light which the retina maps, these retinal signals are summated to form cells which respond to lengths of contrast... i.e. the primary visual cortex is there to pick out lines. Each cortical column (which responds to a line of a particular orrentiation) almost certainly inhibits neighbouring cortical columns, inorder to enhance contrast in the directional dimention. Disinhibition would therefore lead to an loss of contrast in picking out the direction in which constrasting lines apeared and hence a major deficit in object recognition.

Thalamocortical occilations are the leading candidate for how the brain binds of discordant sensory stimuli into a complete and contiuous concious event. I have theorised in my "Neuropharmacology of hallucinogens" article, that this is how hallucinogens work, but causing inappropriate thalamocortical occilations.

I strongly doubt the Raphe nuclei become damaged.
 
^^^ Thanks.

My professor in Biology 253 yesterday claimed that the Raphe Nuclei was damaged by LSD, and I wasn't sure if that was accurate.

What would cause people to claim something like that?
 
Why is everyone only linking them with psycodelics?? I seriously have had strong tracers since I first used crystal, they will go away with discontinued use, but come back everytime I use again, or have been using focalin frequently. Is this just plain brain damage? What causes my tracers?
 
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