Cannabis vs Alcohol debate

[SpanoonapS]

To make a long story short... my friend posted a comment on facebook about alcohol and everyone took a massive shit. I defended her, I am going to post comment number 49 from the opposing side and comment number 50 which is my rebuttal. Tell me what you guys think... kinda long but interesting.

From: Joshua Thompson (NOT ME)

Alcohol is not a disease. It is a water-miscible compound, a fermented beverage. Alcoholism is a disease. Fact. It is a genetic trait, it can be passed down, just like cancer and redhair; they have found the gene responsible. Addiction in general is a disease, whether it is a physical addiction to a substance or a psychological addiction ( like ... See Morepack-rats or porn addicts). The discussion of free will is something totally different. The disease doesn't make you start drinking but will make you more inclined to continue or to do so in excess. That said I'm pretty sure we are all aware of the way booze makes people act and what it is doing to our inhibitions, not much confusion there. But there is a huge difference between an addict and a recreational user. Addicts form physical and emotional dependencies in which they NEED to drink so they don't go through withdrawl.
.
There is nothing wrong with drinking. It doesn't make you dumb or emotional inept if done so in moderation. Alcohol isn't mind control juice stifling our creative faculties. It is as much of a key that unlocks the creative doorway as psychotropics or marijuana, just read Kerovac or look at a Van Gogh (just 2 out of many, and while you may not like them, they are highly regarded in our world). I do not have the be made to feel bad for enjoying adult beverages in settings where it is acceptable. - To each their own, but don't shit in my shoes and tell me you think it's disgusting just because you don't shit on your own.

From: Andrew Spano (ME)

dont think I said "disgusting" anywhere in my rant, those are your words not mine. Nor did I pass judgment or shit in your shoes. I basically stated facts... I have no emotional stake in whether people drink or not, they could get fucked for all I care.

Alcoholism is a meaningless term and is not a disease nor is it genetic or hereditary. As many statements as there are stating that THE GENE HAS BEEN FOUND there are equal or more statements pointing to the contrary. I dont care how much daddy drank, you can ALWAYS avoid the abuse and/or use of alcohol... you cant, however, change the color of your eyes. I know tons of people whose parents were heavy alcoholics and they are doing just fine... whats the difference? did the miracle gene decide to skip them? I also know kids who were put up for adoption at a very young age whose biological parents were both MASSIVE ALCOHOLICS... yet, without this knowledge, the child grew up and lived a healthy life never having TOUCHED alcohol... mind over matter? or gene pool? hrmm...

I'm pretty sure you just compared alcohol to psycho-active substances... not trying to sound snobby but perhaps there is much more research you need to attain before you talk about a subject such as this. In no way shape or form can you compare cannabis, LSD, DMT, MDMA, or mushrooms to alcohol. They dont even act on the same neurotransmitters in the brain nor does alcohol have an effect on the pineal gland which is where ALL the "doors" are unlocked. Cannabis and other psycho-active drugs act on the hippo-campus, cerebellum, and basal ganglia which STIMULATES neurotransmitters. Alcohol acts on the Cerebral cortex, Limbic system ,Hypothalamus and pituitary gland which NUMBS or DUMBS DOWN the receptors causing pain/emotion loss or loss of control. Its not even a discussion.... See More

Vincent Van Gogh has admitted to heavy cannabis use on several occasions, by the way.

Once again, I am not judging you nor casting stones at anyone... I dont care if the entire country is drunk 24/7. It makes absolutely no difference to me whatsoever. But if you are going to discuss facts then I will state them properly and truthfully every time. If you are trying to argue facts then I'm sorry but you are wrong and if you think I am passing judgment you are wrong to the 2nd power. But lets just stop this silly debate because it obviously will lead us nowhere. People are stuck in their ways and wish not to learn, grow, or evolve and that is just fine by me if i had 10 fucks i wouldnt give 1. Peace.

 

[eckley47]

eh, people will argue over this forever. everyone's got their habits and opinions. but i really don't ever see alcohol as being "a key to unlock my creative doorway" lol. no fucking way.

 

[SpanoonapS]

haha thats what im sayin man !

 

[CashewXD]

i completely agree with you. alcohol is a world appart from pot and psychs.

my mom's boyfriend pointed something out awhile ago. it would make so much more sense for marijuana to be legal, and alcohol illegal. there is no physical dependence from pot, meaning you don't go through withdrawals when you come off of it. Alcohol causes mental and physical dependency and is very hard to come off of. also alcohol damages you in so many more ways than marijuana does (since pot has never been proven to kill brain cells).

out of experience my mom's boyfriend also said that it is so much easier to drive while high than to drive while drunk. if pot was legal and people drove high, there would be much less car accidents having to do with substances (although either way it's still better to drive sober).

cannabis wins in the pot vs. alcohol debate, but since it's illegal the public has a much worse view of what it actually is. goddamn propaganda.

 

[double ewe]

your argument about genetics is absolutely incorrect.

and your perspective on psycho-actives and creativity is a little too black and white.

if alcohol lowers your inhibitions and makes it easier for you to access thoughts/feelings that you might otherwise keep locked away, then it can certainly lead to creativity.

In no way shape or form can you compare cannabis, LSD, DMT, MDMA, or mushrooms to alcohol. They dont even act on the same neurotransmitters in the brain nor does alcohol have an effect on the pineal gland which is where ALL the "doors" are unlocked. Cannabis and other psycho-active drugs act on the hippo-campus, cerebellum, and basal ganglia which STIMULATES neurotransmitters. Alcohol acts on the Cerebral cortex, Limbic system ,Hypothalamus and pituitary gland which NUMBS or DUMBS DOWN the receptors causing pain/emotion loss or loss of control. Its not even a discussion....

you're a little too confident that neuro-chemistry is the sole determining factor regarding the effects of a substance. set, setting, expectation, psychology, etc. all play a role and are the reason that the same substance may have vastly different effects in different people. your attempt to stymie discussion by adding "it's not even a discussion" makes me think you realize there's a lot missing from your argument.

also, i'd like to see the post that he is responding to.

 

[rollingstoned!]

I think it's really obvious that drugs effect people very differently. For instance some people get no effect from marijuana or hate it very much while others love it. I mean there is slight scientific proof of this.
Example: 1 out of 10 white people are missing an enzyme (CYP2D6) that metabolizes certain drugs.
There's a generalization that THC binds to CB1 and CB2 receptors to give its effects, but what else does it do? Seriously it's a molecule that starts a chain reaction of events in the body. I'm 100% sure that this chain reaction is different for people. People are not 100% the same and drugs will do very very different things to different people.

My point is that marijuana can be as addicting as alcohol for some people, and (more likely) vise versa.
Also, people need to accept withdrawl as part of drug use. It's really sad (and stupid) that people will destroy they're lives because they won't accept the fact that they will get better if they stop drugging for awhile. Self control is key and, while it is completely possible that I am wrong, I feel most people who are addicts because they want to be. They could quit they just don't want to. I know that's a very extreme statement but it's what I've seen in life so far.

 

[Zzyzx]

Alcohol is one of the worse substance in the world regarding brain chemistery damage, not even talking about the liver.

The 2 dont even compare

 

[SpanoonapS]

Double ewe - Thats fine if you disagree... I tried to "stymie" the discussion because based on the research and experiences of not only myself but of countless others, there really is no room for discussion or debate when it comes to alcohol "opening up doors" or windows of perception. Sure alcohol affects people differently and whatnot but comparing it to psycho-active substances is just asinine. I drank a megafuckton of alcohol in my day and NEVER did it open up a door nor has it done so for anyone else I've known. Besides, the people who are debating this have NO experience with psycho-active drugs nor have knowledge of spirituality/pineal effects.

Here is what he was responding to:

From: Andrew Spano
The Reason Why People Drink - Before I post this I would like to point out that this will cause a few reactions among people... first, some will get offended (naturally) and second, some will not understand or think its bullshit (naturally) BUT what I would like you to realize is that there is something called the subconscious, many of us are not AWARE of certain feelings and emotions we posses.

1. Social Situations - people tend to drink in social situations because they feel it "loosens them up". Especially when the opposite sex is involved, men gain more confidence when liquor is involved, ever seen a guy eyeballing a woman from across the room and doesnt have the courage to talk to her but then takes a shot of whiskey and says "fuck it". Alcohol also makes women throw their morals and inhibitions out the window and men KNOW this.
2. Depression/Boredom - people drink as part of an escape from every day life. Our lives have been saturated with a false reality of materialism and fascism so they drink to COPE and to forget about their boring shitty lives. Everyone looks forward to the weekend so they can PARTY but really they are just looking forward to their emotional freedom. Alcohol prevents you from spiritual and emotional evolution and people who drink like to be around others who drink, whats that saying? misery loves company? They want to be around others like them and if you arent then your an outcast and a loser.
3. Relaxation - there is nothing wrong with relaxation but i believe it can be achieved absent alcohol. ... See More
4. "Alcoholism is a Disease!!" - Alcohol is NOT...repeat...NOT a disease. Alcohol is a moral choice to either deal with your problems or abandon them and drown yourself in sorrow. I have MANY CLOSE PEOPLE who have had alcohol "problems" and overcome them and they still dont consider it to be a disease once they understood the reasoning behind their drinking. They understand that it only comes down to a choice.

In closing, alcohol is just another substance that keeps the general population DUMB and causes people to drown their problems rather than face the truth, not only about society but about themselves and its just one more thing that holds us back as a species.

 

[double ewe]

Double ewe - Thats fine if you disagree... I tried to "stymie" the discussion because based on the research and experiences of not only myself but of countless others, there really is no room for discussion or debate when it comes to alcohol "opening up doors" or windows of perception.

the plural of "anecdote" is not "data"

1. Social Situations - people get stoned in social situations because they feel it "loosens them up".
2. Depression/Boredom - people get stoned as part of an escape from every day life. Our lives have been saturated with a false reality of materialism and fascism so they smoke to COPE and to forget about their boring shitty lives.
3. Relaxation - there is nothing wrong with relaxation but i believe it can be achieved absent marijuana. ... See More

i'm not trying to hate on pot. but claiming that one recreational psychoactive is somehow more noble than another is ridiculous. both have positives. both have negatives. both can be a good time if used responsibly, and derail your life if used irresponsibly.

 

[SpanoonapS]

comparing the pros and cons of alcohol and marijuana? pretty sure the balance will be tilted entirely on one side.

sure you can sub in marijuana with alcohol in that context... but I'm pretty sure I listed all of the uses of alcohol in that little summary... I havent even began to touch on the endless uses of marijuana. There is absolutely NO pros to drinking alcohol, however, the pros surrounding cannabis are astounding.. ranging from food to clothing to fuel to a cancer cure. The uses are also used for spiritual evolution, soul searching, and meditation (which is what I use it for)... dont think I ever heard a spiritual guru or ancestor ever say "down a shot of Wild Turkey... it will help you understand your connection to nature and people"

eh whatever... you can play devils advocate all you want I'm not going to play anymore. I see what you saying but I humbly disagree. I will leave you with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSxJs0WQhGk

 

[double ewe]

There is absolutely NO pros to drinking alcohol.

moderate drinking has an enormous array of health benefits (including the reduction of cognitive impairment with age), along with being correlated with people who are both more active and happy than those who don't drink.

"Moderate drinkers tend to have better health and live longer than those who are either abstainers or heavy drinkers. In addition to having fewer heart attacks and strokes, moderate consumers of alcoholic beverages (beer, wine or distilled spirits or liquor) are generally less likely to suffer hypertension or high blood pressure, peripheral artery disease, Alzheimer's disease and the common cold. Sensible drinking also appears to be beneficial in reducing or preventing diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, bone fractures and osteoporosis, kidney stones, digestive ailments, stress and depression, poor cognition and memory, Parkinson's disease, hepatitis A, pancreatic cancer, macular degeneration (a major cause of blindness), angina pectoris, duodenal ulcer, erectile dysfunction, hearing loss, gallstones, liver disease and poor physical condition in elderly."

eh whatever... you can play devils advocate all you want I'm not going to play anymore.

 

[SpanoonapS]

i dont feel like searching my thoughts or internetz to debate this, I can easily find articles pointing to the contrary but I just dont care enough. Im pretty sure its evident that cannabis pros outweigh alcohol pros by far but whatever man you win

 

[Newmoonrecord]

Well there have been a lot of proven good health outcomes from moderate drinking. But also I'm sure cannabis will ultimately be shown to have more than just anti cancer properties when it is studied more.

But to say alcohol is some evil substance is going a little too far. People have enjoyed alcohol responsibly for centuries or millenia. If you were to ask to ban that now, you would be going the same direction as the people who banned pot ! Dont rag on something just because you have met people who have had bad experiences with it because for every alcoholic there are plenty of people who are using it to benefit their life in a safe way. (Physical and social/psychological benefits.. isnt that why you use pot?)

And some people drink alcoholic beverages for the taste, not just to escape. They shouldnt ban something that is good for you in small quantities and tastes so great just because some people fuck it up.

But if you're judging a substances legality based on its physical risks then pot should be the first thing to be legalized

 

[Eldaren]

Yeah I drink occasionally, but its never more than a little, and simply because I actually enjoy alcoholic beverages. Lately I've been drinking less and less often, but when I do drink its still delicious and refreshing for my taste buds. My brain tends to disagree though, so I drink very much in moderation.

It definitely has nothing to do with a "need" for it, in any sense of that word. Not even for relaxation. I can be as uninhibited as I want with or without alcohol. It's just tasty.

 

[SpanoonapS]

you are right... didnt mean to sound like i was ragging on it... just think that there are better substances for you cheers regardless

 

[blode]

haha facebook arguments are pretty awesome sometimes.
But I agree with you, alcohol isn't in the same league as psycho actives and alcoholism I am fairly certain isn't genetic.

 

[mrgl]

Dumb discussion, just do both together - the healthiest and most fun way to go :D!

Edit: What's the Nice List, and more important: Why am I on it?

And some more serious comments on the subject: I know as many potheads that hate on alcohol as frequent alcohol users that demonize weed. Even though it's probably safe to assume that regarding physical damage alcohol is much worse than weed, there's no reason to see alcohol as a "worse" drug. For instance, it's not the fault of the alcohol if people get aggressive on it, but those people are latently aggressive before anyway.

I personally enjoy, as I said, the combination of both the most and I can't smoke weed without drinking (alcohol kills the anxiety), but everybody is different.

 

[Newbierock]

^i'm not a massive fan of drinking, it makes me dead shirty with people, usually resulting in a brawl and ruining the night. >_< also like to note that i've had like 2 fights ever without drinking being involved. not a violent guy

but i'm not hating on it, it's fun one time every 3 years for me, just prefer my weed.

 

[Roger&Me]

the people who are debating this have NO experience with psycho-active drugs nor have knowledge of spirituality/pineal effects.

The pineal gland plays no role in the psychoactive effects that you experience from ingesting psychedelics and marijuana. To the best of our neurochemical knowledge, traditional psychedelics agonize the 5HT2A receptor subtype which triggers a cascade effect resulting in the release of glutamate in cortical pyramidal neurons which is believed to result in psychedelic effects. The consumption of cannabis elicits psychedelic effects through agonization of CB1 receptors and other receptor types in the endocannabinoid system.

The pineal gland produces melatonin, and has not been proven to be correlated with psychedelic effects (or even speculated as being the cause of psychedelic effects by competent neuroscientists...).

 

[double ewe]

I know as many potheads that hate on alcohol as frequent alcohol users that demonize weed. Even though it's probably safe to assume that regarding physical damage alcohol is much worse than weed, there's no reason to see alcohol as a "worse" drug.

that's been my experience as well.

going through high school and college, i've seen a lot of people kind of go overboard (myself included) where pot and alcohol are concerned. and while it's true that alcohol is worse in terms of physical damage (and in terms of the severity of its negative effects), i've seen a lot more people let their whole lifestyle totally go to shit as a result of weed (and the assumption that it's safe and non-addictive).

there are lots of negatives with alcohol. don't get me wrong. but its been my experience that, long-term, marijuana isn't nearly as benign as a lot of potheads think.