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Can any healthy adult get themselves out of poverty?

basix

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Do you think that any person (without serious mental or physical health problems) could get themselves out of poverty or stop themselves from being poor, if they worked hard enough.

Are there alot people out there who through no fault of their own, will be living in poverty their whole lives?

I understand that for disabled people or seriously mentally ill people that this is often the case, so for the purpose of this discussion, I wanted to focus mainly on people who aren't seriously ill.
 
It depends on the cause of their poverty.

Some people live in areas of the world where the economy is in such a poor state that nearly everyone lives in poverty. For these people, there is not much that they can do other than try to leave their country or hope it gets better.

Otherwise, assuming that they are capable of learning then they should be able to learn some marketable skill that will allow them to escape poverty. However, there are barriers to learning marketable skills such as lack of time due to the need to support a family, or the unavailabilty of skill instruction.

It depends on the state of the economy, the resources of the person, and the desire to escape poverty. There may be some people for whom these factors present a problem, which they may or may not be able to overcome.

So, I would say that some can and some can't.
 
That's an interesting question. Ideally the answer should be yes, because a capitalist society is supposed to be based on the idea that the harder you work, the richer you'll get (there are exceptions like being born rich, etc, mind you, but presumably somewhere down your family line, someone busted their ass to get you where you are).

However, there is also a sort of pyramid of wealth that is necessary for a healthy economy. For example, a company cant survive if there is an excess of managerial types with no working class to support them, or visa-versa.

It seems to me that while most people living below the poverty line probably just lack the motivation to do anything about it (be it drug addiction, abusive parents, etc), there are still a small percentage of people who are filling the economical niche for gas pumpers and grocery baggers who would never be capable of rising above the poverty level in an ideal capitalist society.
 
The secret to getting out of poverty is to not have kids ;) less mouths to feed = more money for stuff.


-USA
there are many places where this is not possible... even in some urban US areas
 
The answer to this question is....no.

It's not actually that difficult a question to answer. There is heaps of sociological research on it.

If you grow up in a context where education is not valued you probably won't do well at school (or even go). If you grow up in a context where everyone around you is abusing drugs and alcohol you probably will too. If you grow up in a context where nobody has a job then you will find it very difficult to get one even if you try. You won't know the people required and you won't know how to behave or dress. Then once you do get a job you will be less likely to have the skills, both emotional, cultural and whatever to keep it.

I mean...there is heaps of research on this...the society of opportunity is a myth because you can't encourage social mobility if you don't recognise that people come from different backgrounds and positions. Not doing this is a kind of invisibile discrimination where you assume that the poor are lazy because you haven't recognised that it's harder for a poor person to become rich than a rich person to become richer.
 
>>However, there is also a sort of pyramid of wealth that is necessary for a healthy economy. For example, a company cant survive if there is an excess of managerial types with no working class to support them, or visa-versa.
>>

You are presupposing
1. A correspondence between position and payment that is equal to what is typical today.
2. Hierarchical internal structure for firms.
3. A context where the economy need be driven by profit.

>>here are still a small percentage of people who are filling the economical niche for gas pumpers and grocery baggers who would never be capable of rising above the poverty level in an ideal capitalist society.>>

This is a big fucking niche. :) They are the necessary counterpart to profit at the top.

ebola
 
I find the question problematic because poverty is such a relative term. In Canada, at least, there is no such a thing as a poverty line.

http://www.ccsd.ca/factsheets/fs_lic01.htm

Its actually quite high in Canada, basically for a single person living in a city $11/hr
wage is the cutoff point for an LICO(low income cutoff). Its probably a bit more now due to inflation.

Obviously the transition from being a wage earner to something salary based or a higher wage is not easy. I would say the majority of those people making $11/hr or less are operating in a position that is relatively unskilled. I work at an unskilled job and make a bit more than $11/hr, roughly $18/hr. I would say for myself acquiring a trade or making a salary would be quite difficult, not impossible, but improbable. I guess my attitude to "getting more money" is I could care less. There is no drive to be wealthy.
Who wants to "work hard," as the OP stated?

---

Now, It seems that the overall intent of the question/topic is to discuss people who are unemployed/homeless. I would consider these people poor, living in poverty.
I'll go out on a limb and say that the the stereotypical "poor" person, a person without basic living amenities, is quite capable of acquiring the basic amenities (in a large urban centre). At the very least there is the opportunity to do so. Minus any sort of addiction, the average high school dropout/homeless/unemployed can acquire a job/housing/food. The social safety net is there for those that want to use it. But you have to "want" to use it. Thats why I don't understand the homeless/poverty question. Is it a lifestyle choice? Minus addiction/psychological problems.

I would say the majority of opinion out there in Canada would state otherwise. And I would agree the problem isn't as simplistic as getting a job. But our North American lifestyle hinges on the fact that you need to generate income to acquire the basic primary needs, and more so to have a "disposable income" ;)
Conform or die!
 
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any person (without serious mental or physical health problems)
I wanted to focus mainly on people who aren't seriously ill.

poverty = not enough food = health problem = eventual serious problem

are you talking about financial debt or poverty ?

basix said:
Ok then to have a better discussion, just focus on whatever country you're from.

since most people who can afford internet (time and $) are not poor or from a poor country then the thread title could be : Can any healthy adult get themselves out of financial debt in a rich country?
 
My heart tells me "yes", but my mind is wholly agnostic. There are a lot of reasons why some people are poor and stay that way, and others move on up. And as Pennywise said, it depends a lot on why the person is poor.
 
I knew I would end up playing devil's advocate on this.

I don't care if there is "heaps of sociological research" on this subject, the fact still remains that there are a lot of idiots out there with some smarter people mixed in. Even if you grow up in drug-infested slumville, your mom probably still has a TV. All you have to do is turn it on and see lots of professionals doing all sorts of jobs - cops, fbi agents, doctors, nurses, businessmen, actors, engineers, scientists.

Now, the smart people will, after a certain amount of time, start to think, "Hey wait a second. Society actually exists outside of my little slum-ville. I wonder how those people do that."

Then all you have to do is walk to the free fucking library and get a book on careers, which will tell you exactly how to go get an education and earn some money. Then go to the very cheap community college and sign your name on a piece of paper and attend a few classes at night.

Instead of having that 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th child...just tell your wife you are going to go to some classes and that she should hold off on the "kids" thing for a couple years until you get some skills and a better job. Instead of buying that direct TV dish and watching CSI or Lost! all fucking evening, you can delay instant gratification and hit the books for a while.

That's really what it comes down to - people brought up in the middle to upper class are tought about delaying instant gratification throughout their formative years, whereas the poor are often exposed to the pursuit of instant gratification, by way of drugs or crime, or laziness.


Look at all the disabled people in wheelchairs that live normal lives. This is because we as a society decided to allow them to do so - by building ramps and elevators, and by passing anti-discrimination laws.

They can't change the fact that they were in a car accident. But you CAN change the fact that you are a lazy ass content to sit around watching Judge Judy in HI-DEF while chain-smoking KOOL's.

Now the sociology cops are really onto me. "But.....but....they live in a culture of poovverrrtyyy.....they never learned how to do anything else...."

Yea, I can just see somebody sitting in a big LA-Z-BOY lamenting, "I smoke because society MAKES me smoke!!"

No you smoke because your a dumbass who doesn't have your priorities straight, especially if you are concerned about your lot in life.

Instead of dropping $500 on that fresh new tattoo, why didn't you take that money and put it in a savings account, or towards a class?


There are so many free or next to free resources available that nobody really has an excuse. If you don't want to work at KFC anymore, literally all it takes is a little bit of time, some common sense, maybe a career book or free career counselor at a community college, and a few thousand bucks. Most of that can probably be borrowed, and if not I'm sure that an able-bodied adult can scrape together a few hundred bucks for a term of community college. Train to be an EMT or a cop, or day-care provider and start your own daycare center. There are a million things you can do if you put your mind to it, it's just a question of whether you are going to do it or not.

So to answer the original question, "Can any able-bodied adult get themselves out of poverty?" No. But you can sure bet that in an ideally functioning society, SOME able-bodied adults WILL get themselves out of poverty.
 
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Yes.
There is some class-mobility. There is some structural and cultural constraint. The question it comes down to though, is can society be more just than it is currently?

ebola
 
That's really what it comes down to - people brought up in the middle to upper class are tought about delaying instant gratification throughout their formative years, whereas the poor are often exposed to the pursuit of instant gratification, by way of drugs or crime, or laziness.

And this is where your argument falls apart.
It's not WHAT you know, it's ...

From what I have seen, successful people succeed not because they fuck up less, but because when they do fuck up, they have a STRONG NETWORK OF SUPPORT to catch them. Consider two dudes who sat around on a Monday smoking Kools and watching Judge Judy -- Abel and Buster. Abel had a wife who, while definitely disgusted with him, was the daughter of a psychologist, and decided to take the approach of probing Abel to see what the source of his depression was. After a long session of talking, fueled by some wholesome, protein-rich food made by Abel's sister, who was a good cook and visited often, they decided Abel should have a long talk with his old classmate from school, who himself had fought a bout of depression and kicked a smoking habit with the help of Zen meditation. Not only did Abel's friend cheer him up, he even gave him a couple of leads to some good places that were hiring for some rather interesting jobs.

Buster had married the girl he got pregnant. She'd dropped out of school and ran away from a mother who beat her. Her only friends were people who could relate to her -- similar young women who'd known nothing but pain and depravation from day one. So when her husband Buster sat around, she had no resources to fall back on, nothing to think of that would give her hope for him. So she simply nags him. And he lights up another Kool.

The only way to break the cycle is compassion. You can BE THAT PERSON who inspires a disaffected person to say to themselves, 'You know, I am worth it, and I owe it to myself to do better than I'm doing.' Simply being friends / acquaintances / coworkers with a person who's positive and forward-moving can be all it takes to motivate somebody onto the right track. I'm hardly advocating you let the disaffected leech off of you. On the contrary, it's the little kindnesses that get the ball rolling.

Back to the original question, at the time of writing this, no, not every poor healthy adult has the human / cultural capital to better themselves. But it doesn't need to be like this, if the haves show the have-nots a bit more respect and inclusion.
 
^I think the questions is delving more into into capability, which supersedes will power.

You can go into all of the socio-economical barriers preventing a person from breaking the poverty in their family, but when it really gets right down to it, its all a matter of how much you want it.

It obviously takes a hell of alot more to become a wealthy individual when you were born into a ghetto with two drunken parents than if you were born into kennedy family, but what I'm curious about are physical barriers (such as simply not being able to find a job) which would prevent such a person from gaining wealth.

It seems to me that there are plenty enough unmotivated impoverished people out there to fill the economical niche for the lowest-of-the-low, but what if there werent? Could every single poor person in a capitalist nation such as the USA just up and become thriving members of society one day, or would there be a certain percentage who are physically incapable of finding a job that would rise them above the poverty line?
 
The only way to break the cycle is compassion. You can BE THAT PERSON who inspires a disaffected person to say to themselves, 'You know, I am worth it, and I owe it to myself to do better than I'm doing.'
That is what I was essentially trying to do with my long rant. You are right - the way to help those without support networks is to support them and say, "If you want a seat at the table, you gotta play the game. Here, let me show you how."
 
they could try

any person COULD get themselves rich. how far are they willing to go for it?

would you kill someone to get rich?

would you stab a friend in the back to get rich?

what lengths would you go.

i read something one time that talked about this exact thing. this paper was written based on a certain situation of course, but basically it said that if you became "obsessed" with doing something, you'll probably do it. every waking moment you put that one thing above all else, every action you made you made to achieve it, you would eventually do it. it was saying that people give up after a certain point in time, and that prevents it. i wish i had the link, i'll look for it.
 
pennywise said:
It depends on the cause of their poverty.
Some people live in areas of the world where the economy is in such a poor state that nearly everyone lives in poverty. For these people, there is not much that they can do other than try to leave their country or hope it gets better.
Otherwise, assuming that they are capable of learning then they should be able to learn some marketable skill that will allow them to escape poverty. However, there are barriers to learning marketable skills such as lack of time due to the need to support a family, or the unavailabilty of skill instruction.
It depends on the state of the economy, the resources of the person, and the desire to escape poverty. There may be some people for whom these factors present a problem, which they may or may not be able to overcome.
So, I would say that some can and some can't.
Agree~
A single mom , 2 kids, no husband, living in the US.
On welfare, then went to school.
Got a degree and a very good job.
Lives happily ever after.
Yea, it can be done.;)
 
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