Bluelighters views on the Catholic Church: are u one of us? Do you like us-hate us-pity us-whatever us and if so why?

[SpiralusSancti]

I m not completely ok with basically no institution, but if the Guy left a Church and not a Book (sorrry Protestants) there probably is a reason..I try to use the institution rater than being used, one of the Titles of the Pope is "Servus Servorum Deo "( Servant of the Servants of God) ad I take it quite literally....

Well in a biblical sense Chruch is simply wherever and whenever there are believers. Idea of a single highest authority among members of Church is politic, politic of institution and even within institution there are varying views on that.

 

[RDP89]

@ageingpartyfiend I see your point mate, but I have also seen people who changed their life for the better because of religion, ones that are shit even if they have religion image if they did not ( i.e. myself) and yes, people who should be better doing crack for all the good religion is doing to them....Religion is a powerful tool and should be handled with care

I Thank God for many things, especially because differently from my amico @JustferFun my family was very light Catholic and I never went to Catholic school and stuff and I have been away from His Church from when I was 12 to when I was 26-27, "mature" enough to not mix the messenger and the message. I considered myself "generically Christian " from my 19s-20´s but going back to the Church was way more difficult , I studied Catholic Theology and Philosophy and ...it made sense even if I did not want to! People should know more about it, not having the thing taught by sado priests and nuns bigoted parents and relatives etc....
by the way @JustferFun gay people as gay people don t "go to Hell", homosexual acts are a sin but so it s any sexual act outside of marriage, no discrimination we are all sinners People lie to think that homosexuality is a super sin because the sin of the others are always worse than urs....

Well according to the Bible homosexuality is punishable by death by stoning, that sounds pretty serious to me.

 

[skipjames]

Well according to the Bible homosexuality is punishable by death by stoning, that sounds pretty serious to me.

YEp but a) For Christians the Old Testament should be read in light of the New Testament that supersedes the Old in a number of ways ( for instance in the OT adulterous women were to be stoned as well, as you might remember Jesus begged to differ); b) Catholics and Orthodox ( aka the 2000 years old Churches)believe in Scripture AND Tradition ( the Dogmatic Councils, the teachings on how to correctly interpret the Scriptures etc) not in "Sola Scriptura" (Bible alone) or in the Biblical literalism which unfortunately is way too common in the USA. This is why Saint Augustine had no problem with evolution in the...5th century while some illiterate fundamentalist "pastor" have in...2023. Here s the Official Teaching of the Catholic Church on homosexuality

"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition." http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm

PS : objectively disordered is a technical term, it does not mean stuff like "mental disorder". Any sexual activity which is not unitive and procreative is "disordered" according to this view (i,e, sex outside of marriage)

 

[skipjames]

Well in a biblical sense Chruch is simply wherever and whenever there are believers. Idea of a single highest authority among members of Church is politic, politic of institution and even within institution there are varying views on that.

Sure but even in the Acts of Apostles you can see a structure (u have the Apostles which were basically the first bishops , u have the the presbyters etc ) not that different from the "visible" Church we have today.

 

[RDP89]

@skipjames What is the reasoning behind the New Testament superceding the Old Testament? I’m genuinely curious. I mean did Jesus not say in Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them”? Now admittedly I’m not a biblical scholar by any means, so perhaps I’m missing something, but isn’t the Bibles supposed to be the infallible word of god? Isn’t Jesus coming and correcting things admitting there were mistakes? And what are the specific passages of the New Testament that modern Christians use to justify throwing out parts of the OT which are no longer socially acceptable?

 

[skipjames]

@skipjames What is the reasoning behind the New Testament superceding the Old Testament? I’m genuinely curious. I mean did Jesus not say in Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them”? Now admittedly I’m not a biblical scholar by any means, so perhaps I’m missing something, but isn’t the Bibles supposed to be the infallible word of god? Isn’t Jesus coming and correcting things admitting there were mistakes? And what are the specific passages of the New Testament that modern Christians use to justify throwing out parts of the OT which are no longer socially acceptable?

I m not a Biblical Scholar either so take this with the benefit of the doubt but the idea is that the Scriptures are INSPIRED by God, are not the verbatim Word of God as is the case with the Quran according to Muslims . The Biblical writers did their best to make up their mind with the mistery of God but they were still men of their times with all their limitations. The Catechism says it better "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men."93 "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional,"94 the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God's saving love". One of Christ´ ways of "fulfilling the prophets and the Law" was also to explain and expand the real meaning behind the OT (.e. the various "You heard that it was written...but I am telling you" you can find in the Gospels). Does it make any sense?

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Sure but even in the Acts of Apostles you can see a structure (u have the Apostles which were basically the first bishops , u have the the presbyters etc ) not that different from the "visible" Church we have today.

Well, that’s really stretching it.

Every person upon becoming full member of Curch has potential to get “special powers” like Apostoles. Like many saints supposedly did. So I still don’t accept Curch as an institution is anything but an ancient power struggle.

Unrelated to this. What I don’t like with many Church members is either ignorance or unacceptance of fact that Christians are one of 3 Abrahamic religions, and Catholics further branching from Abraham. To be more specific I find it immature to be positive about claims that Jesus is God and not a prophet or a man who got enlighten. Muslims have no problems with accepting Jesus as prophet and even his mother as very important figures, while hardly any Christian thinks so of Muhammed. It’s not only confined to Abrahamic religions, it’s also spreads to Buddhism (all who accept Budha as good path accept also Jesus as a good path), Hinduism and to just about any significant religion. On the other hand, most Christians think they have patent or something, on spiritual world and afterlife.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

@skipjames What is the reasoning behind the New Testament superceding the Old Testament? I’m genuinely curious. I mean did Jesus not say in Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them”? Now admittedly I’m not a biblical scholar by any means, so perhaps I’m missing something, but isn’t the Bibles supposed to be the infallible word of god? Isn’t Jesus coming and correcting things admitting there were mistakes? And what are the specific passages of the New Testament that modern Christians use to justify throwing out parts of the OT which are no longer socially acceptable?

Eye for an eye ≠ Turning other cheek
Stoning woman for infidelity ≠ Understanding hookers are cool too
Having to mutilate penis to enter heaven ≠ Not heaving to mutilate penis to enter heaven*

*this is a tricky one, as, many scholars claim so, in the infancy of Christianity there were 2 thoughts of dick, one that you have to be Jew to become Christian and other that won, that anyone can become Christian, therefore gaining bigger audience

There are countless others examples of upgrading old, savage way. Same like Judaism upgraded old ways of killing humans for sacrifice to only killing poor animals.

 

[Salem_is_tired]

I grew up in a not so religious, but somewhat believer household, (my mom always told me she believed in God, but she never really went to church or prayed) and went to a catholic high school because I had no other option due to the fact that at this point basically every high school in my hometown was under some kind of church.
To be honest, I never had strong feelings on the topic. I believe in the "live and let live" mentality. Until someone is not a edgy atheist or all mighty christian, belittling the other one because they don't agree wiht them, I usually don't mind any kind of religioin and believer around me - I often find myself having great conversation with people who has different views from mine, because yeah, even if I am not a hardcore atheist, I would label myself as a agnostic-atheist.
Since I was surrounded by all type of different christian growing up, I never really thought about "what makes a christian a christian" because it was always a spectrum for me - some christian make me sick, and I wan to vomit in my mouth, other ones are really sweet and add many great things to my life - therefore I always try to find out "what type of christian" I'm talking to.

 

[RDP89]

I m not a Biblical Scholar either so take this with the benefit of the doubt but the idea is that the Scriptures are INSPIRED by God, are not the verbatim Word of God as is the case with the Quran according to Muslims . The Biblical writers did their best to make up their mind with the mistery of God but they were still men of their times with all their limitations. The Catechism says it better "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men."93 "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional,"94 the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God's saving love". One of Christ´ ways of "fulfilling the prophets and the Law" was also to explain and expand the real meaning behind the OT (.e. the various "You heard that it was written...but I am telling you" you can find in the Gospels). Does it make any sense?

That just seems to me like finding convenient ways to explain away contradictions after the fact.

 

[smokeymcpot42088]

*edit* ^ That is another thing; which bible are we talking about. I'll say damn the pope on a king james.....so much was left out to fit the narrative, edited, outright changed. Tidings are nonsense too, the vatican has plenty and god doesn't need any.

I am a catholic but I have put a disconnect between me and the vatican to be honest.

I may like coptic better but Im not well read on these issues.

I do not agree with the vatican always that is forsure. That pedophilia shit was horrid and handled completely wrong.

Talking to a priest who is of true faith is absolutely healing. (not like in a "oh you confessed your souls clean" but just having someone with a great deal of wisdom, patience, and empathy with a confidentiality policy. Way better than a psychologist haha. No judgement (outwardly) from the priest.

When I was stabbed it felt good to get extremunction. wait no i stabbed myself, lot of paperwork and cops if it happened otherwise. If I have to be laying on a bed dying having my mom and a GOOD priest; couldn't choose better people to comfort me through that.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Religion is mind control.

Religion persecuted my pagan ancestors.


Religion is the reason why we have homophobia & partially a reason why we have a never ending drug war, as using drugs is seen as a "moral failing", that needs "punishment".


So, as a BL'er, I don't think too fondly of religion.

 

[Soso78]

Chatholic church is full of nonces.
All them priests fiddling the choir boys

 

[BK38]

Religion is mind control.

Religion persecuted my pagan ancestors.


Religion is the reason why we have homophobia & partially a reason why we have a never ending drug war, as using drugs is seen as a "moral failing", that needs "punishment".


So, as a BL'er, I don't think too fondly of religion.

Agreed, but pearls of wisdom can be gleaned from studying various religions/philosophies etc. I totally agree with you and @F.U.B.A.R. though. Especially organized religion, it's FUBAR.

I think if you want to have a relationship with whatever religion you subscribe to, that's literally between you and whatever you believe (as in no intermediary interpreting stuff for you - whether it be a priest, rabbi, imam, a non-abrahamic religion etc).

As for my thoughts on the Catholic Church specifically, theologically, I think the concept of "original sin" and things like burning in hell for all eternity for saying something like "god damn it" is disgusting. The amount of guilt/indoctrination from birth is also appalling to me.

They also literally kill people through misinformation by discouraging people from using condoms and stuff; especially in hotbeds of places like Africa for HIV.

Finally, as someone previously mentioned, I feel like they like to play card games, but instead of shuffling decks, they shuffle nonces (pedophiles for the yanks in da house) from church to chruch, parish to parish, ruining lives everywhere.

EDIT: To answer OP clearly - pity predominantly - they're brain-washed sheep imo.

 

[-=SS=-]

I can't believe I missed this thread.

When talking about Catholicism I always think back to Bill Hicks short segment regarding it, which captures a lot of my feelings:


On the political side of things, there is no greater hypocrite in all of documented human history than the Catholic Church itself. It is diametrically opposite to what Jesus actually was, and I'm not even talking about playing geopolitics or amassing gargantuan wealth, both of which I believe can be proven.

Jesus was a method, a function, for a state of being and tried to show others how to enter into this transcending function. In order to try and lift humanity up. The Catholic Church functions in the complete opposite fashion, shutting down the transcending ability of the individual and collective by putting these pernicious moral and intellectual binds into peoples heads, often as children, that keeps them living in a state of anxiety and stress which neurologically forces us out of the highest and back into the lower primitive brain structures.

The RC Church is a psychic-political entity that feeds off both the financial and energetic currency of people. It is despotic and should be swallowed up by the Earth herself. And I still haven't even mentioned the Jesuits or the (perhaps) many secrets stashed beneath the Vatican in its archives. I firmly believe the RC Church is actually 'entity conscious', which would be the greatest irony of all.. a sort of demonic entity.. feeding off the billion or so followers directly and the other several billion indirectly through its geopolitical stranglehold over the economic and political systems of the planet.

But again, the greatest hypocrisy is the Church acting as the middleman between you and your essence. This is a total perversion. A real church would be teaching its followers how to directly commune with themselves, for free.

 

[JackARoe]

I also can't believe I missed this thread.

But I read the thread and have to comment. I saw a series called Medici, it was on Netflix when I saw it. It showed how bankers, politics and the church meet. I believe this was the 1400's. It implied even the Pope realized some .people had to go. All to do with money. I highly recommend it.

Now forget all that. If a person walks the walk of a Christian then all they need to do is be kind, follow the Golden Rule, and act loving towards others. Then I don't care if they go to a church. I find people that go to church are sort of lost. I mean so am I but. Too much hypocrisy in the organized religion. Lot of people are just for show. I'd rather quietly do the work myself.

 

[-=SS=-]

I saw a series called Medici, it was on Netflix when I saw it. It showed how bankers, politics and the church meet. I believe this was the 1400's. It implied even the Pope realized some .people had to go. All to do with money. I highly recommend it.

The problem with the history, much like the history of the City of London, is that it's written by the winners and we invariably don't get the full picture of what transpired, and because much of what transpires isn't necessarily committed to paper.. or it is, and hidden away in the archives.

I think the main takeaway from all this is the fact the RC Church has anything at all to do with tremendous financial powers. It conflicts with what it's supposed to be representing at a fundamental level. I mean, if it's so great and so virtuous, so inline with God, then why the fuck does it even have the need to associate with such things in the first place.

You might be interested in the story of Roberto Calvi. He was an Italian banker who was found mysteriously hanging from London's Blackfriars in 1982. He had close dealings with the Holy See, and was a member of the infamous illegal P2 Masonic lodge in Italy. Of course the Vatican was able to wash it hands of the whole affair, including the collapse of the Bank of Ambrosiano to which both they and Roberto were involved with. The Wiki page suggests that the motive may possibly have been to do with the Vatican financing the 'Solidarity Trade Union' in Poland on behalf of the Pope.

 

[JackARoe]

The problem with the history, much like the history of the City of London, is that it's written by the winners and we invariably don't get the full picture of what transpired, and because much of what transpires isn't necessarily committed to paper.. or it is, and hidden away in the archives.

You might be interested in the story of Roberto Calvi. He was an Italian banker who was found mysteriously hanging from London's Blackfriars in 1982. He had close dealings with the Holy See, and was a member of the infamous illegal P2 Masonic lodge in Italy. Of course the Vatican was able to wash it hands of the whole affair, including the collapse of the Bank of Ambrosiano to which both they and Roberto were involved with. The Wiki page suggests that the motive may possibly have been to do with the Vatican financing the 'Solidarity Trade Union' in Poland on behalf of the Pope.

I agree, each story is told by a person with an opinion. We have to sort of balance the facts from emotions. I suspect Medici was close though as you can see how intertwined the politics, church and power were.

Thanks for the recommendation SS. I will look up that story. They all start sounding similar so there has to be some truth. You can almost feel that is what those characters would do back then. A suspicious hanging? I am not surprised.

 

[Felonious Monk]

I would honestly love to hear a coherent argument on how Catholicism is more persecuted worldwide than Judaism or Islam. I doubt that even most Catholics would try to argue that case.

Yeah... I'm pretty sure the Pope himself would laugh out loud at the idea that Catholics are the most persecuted in ANY country, let alone the entire world. That's just silly.

 

[PtahTek]

There really are no boundaries/lines between us and the rest of "creation". It's all make believe... Jmo
IMHO Catholics are no better or worse than any other organized worshipping. Just my take it's here now we blinded and have no eyes to see.
Distraction/Static
How many died in the name of their god(s)? I can't remember those #'s.
What do we all have in common and focus on these things, no? And be just about it if possible....
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