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Atheism is a set of beliefs that requires very great faith.

Journyman16 said:
I'm not sure just when the addition of 'unknowable' or 'unprovable' got added into what an Agnostic is meant to be.... it was just someone who knew that they didn't know either way"
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But why don't they know either way?

I don't know, it's not really semantics I'm interested in. I don't believe there is a god. I don't know that there isn't, I just find it improbable and rarely ever think about it in a religious context. Whatever that makes me (an atheist, an agnostic, a satanist), I don't really mind. People often ask me and I tell them that I'm "non-religious". As to not offend them by calling myself an atheist, it sounds a bit militant to me.
 
non-Religious is probably an excellent way to describe it - might take that on board myself. I have an interest in the Spiritual but none at all for Religion.

In my case, the not knowing either way has to do with seeing there is no evidence for either belief - nobody has proof there is a god and nobody has evidence there is not...
 
Journyman16 said:
Then you would probably better identify as an Agnostic. Atheists have beliefs - believing something is NOT is no different to believing something IS, unless you can prove it. It is unlikely anyone will ever prove God is not. :D

Come to the light, be an Agnostic and proud. Declare you simply don't know and await more information. :D
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Oh no. My parents are Agnostic and I'm nothing like that. When you ask Agnostics if God exist they just say "I don't know" and I would never in a million years say that.
 
I have never encountered a satisfactory definition of what a god of the monotheist tradition would even look like...so I can't even yet aprroach rejecting the concept. With sufficient discussion with more theistic friends, I've found that my perspective on what a godless universe is similar to others' conception of god.
 
I can make a lot more sense of people coming up with an ethical way to live based on empathy and basic survival than I can from some guy with an arse just dull enough to let Moses watch it as he goes by. The idea that we could only bee 'good' because of the old bloke with the big 'Hell' stick is nonsensical given how 'Christians' have behaved ever since the Christ was around... and before for that matter.

I mean, there was Jericho, a city that had several THOUSAND years of history, and here come the Hebrews, rampaging through everyone else's lands under the instruction of their God - everyone gets killed, raped or enslaved and cities with centuries or more behind them get razed to the ground.

Can we spell 'Vermin'? :D

On the other hand, treating others as you would wish to be treated tends to build connections, and connections mean a better chance of survival under almost all circumstances. So it is natural for humans to try to do well by others.
 
I have to exercise a certain amount of faith in the axioms I choose that allow any sort of logically coherent engangement with the empirical. But is it analous to religious faith? It's more provisional acceptance of an idea to see where it goes? Is that faith?

Ebola
 
ebola? said:
I have to exercise a certain amount of faith in the axioms I choose that allow any sort of logically coherent engangement with the empirical. But is it analous to religious faith? It's more provisional acceptance of an idea to see where it goes? Is that faith?
Ebola
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Nope. By definition, faith is knowing stuff via belief. Or to put it formally via my Religious childhood... "Faith is the evidence of things unseen and the substance of things hoped for!"

Trialling an idea to find results is empirical - faith by definition is not.

Mind you I personally think Faith is a higher order attribute than belief. I can have faith that the Sun will rise tomorrow, and if it doesn't, I am a bit disappointed, but it's no biggie. But if I believe (sorry, but it's too good to resist :D) human CO2 causes global warming, I cannot even SEE the contradictory evidence.
 
You can see God in many places and have "proof" of it when your eyes are open. It's not really about an intellectual discussion and the arguments we can come up with about it ultimately don't really matter. Either you can, or you can't, and that's all you need for your personal universe.

But trying to proove the existence of God in an objective sense - impossible. You can't mind-control everyone like that.
 
Ninae said:
But trying to proove the existence of God in an objective sense - impossible. You can't mind-control everyone like that.
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Don't take this wrong, but that is a very interesting statement...

By not 'take it wrong' I mean mostly I agree with what you said, but the wording you chose for the final sentence is... um... revealing, to say the least.
 
It's just meant to be taken literally. Everyone seems to want to mind-control each other on the subject of religion. Many take it as a great personal offense and threat if someone doesn't share their beliefs, etc.
 
*grins* I figured that - but in the broader context it is still a most intriguing statement. :D
 
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