Opioids At what point is Kratom usage pointless and one should move down the ladder?

[OpiateKiller]

Well I’ve been on Kratom a few months but the last week I was shooting fentanyl so as one can imagine my tolerance is “up a bit”

I’ve been taking 5-7 OPMS black caps a day which are:

Leaf extract 50:1 - 310 mg per capsule
Mitragynine content 148 mg per capsule
7-OH mitragynine content <7 mg a capsule

Which is costing me about $60 a day. I’ve tried to stop but it seems the withdrawals are real as much as I’ve laughed at others shit seems to be no joke and I can’t work 60 hours a week with my asshole bleeding or stomach flipping yawning etc.

Wtf do I do from here? My work is in the busy season till October then i get time off I can try and quit then or just the economical
Answer is buy 100
Sub strips for $10 a pop but then there I am right back fucked in the middle.

But really withdrawal is withdrawal right cause it seems this deep on Kratom
Extracts I’m almost as
Deep as a serious withdrawal anyways…

Yes for those who know me I just enjoy putting my body through extreme
Suffering cause there is no other explanation at this point

 

[negrogesic]

You might be better off getting a suboxone script from one of those online health providers.

On a somewhat unrelated note, and out of sheer curiosity, has anyone here experienced precipitated withdrawal from kratom resulting from buprenorphine?

 

[Xorkoth]

Yeah kratom withdrawal is real, to be sure. If you intend on getting and staying off, I'll say that going back to subs is a bad idea. kratom withdrawal is over SO MUCH faster than sub withdrawal. But if you're thinking of going back to subs because it is a more sustainable way to maintain and live a stable life, then you'll be better off on subs, it sounds like, $60 a day is not sustainable in financial terms unless you've got a large income, and even then, that's a LOT of money.

On a somewhat unrelated note, and out of sheer curiosity, has anyone here experienced precipitated withdrawal from kratom resulting from buprenorphine?

I have not, nor has a friend who frequently took subs right after kratom, nor have I heard of anyone experiencing it (don't take that to assume it's not possible though). I have many times taken bupe around 12 hours after my last kratom dose, when only feeling a hint of withdrawal. My theory is that since they are both partial agonists, bupe won't cause PWS because although it certainly kicks the kratom alkaloids out of the receptor, it fully substitutes so it doesn't send you into withdrawal.

 

[falsifiedhypothesi]

You could switch to powdered leaf and slowly taper off. I can't imagine what kind of crazy dose you'll need to maintain at your current habit, but it's definitely better than buying super expensive extracts.

 

[Nurse Ratched]

Hey Opiatekiller........your favorite fan checking in to say I am sorry this went tits up for you. Damn those extracts and high potency OPMS ones. They really get a hold on people quickly. I would be in the same boat you are if I had been able to afford them. When I got clean I jumped on kratom as well but could only get the powder and any more than 7 grams in a dose would make me sick to my stomach so I couldn't increase it. It's the only thing that kept me from consuming massive doses and going up to a hundred grams a day.

You came so far and now you just have to regroup I guess. If you can't stabilize on a taper of the kratom I guess subs would be good short term. Hate that you would have to WD from them but you are WD'ing now so that's a moot point. I just have always wanted you to beat this nasty thing we all get ourselves into because you worked so damn hard to get where you are.

My thoughts are with you and I can only hope that one day soon you can look back on all this and say thank God it's finally over.

Once you stabilize do you think you could ever be happy with just low doses of powdered kratom?

 

[JackARoe]

Once you stabilize do you think you could ever be happy with just low doses of powdered kratom?

I don't even consider OPMS to be kratom. Almost the same as I don't consider fentanyl to be real dope. But I do consider the powdered leaf to be kratom. I have heard so many things about OPMS. And as someone that has used powdered leaf for years I feel while the withdrwawal is real and tricky, that it gets no where near as bad on plain leaf than it does on some of these extracts. It has always been that.

The way street drugs are so adulterated I was not surprised to find adulterated kratom leaf with synthetics added. I am not saying OPMS is that, but the code on the street is put anything in it to make it stronger.

To answer the original question when I get unhappy and restless I start tapering kratom and feel better. Too much can make me cranky and irritable. I think for me that is the point I back off. And plain leaf kratom has caused me minimal issues with backing off. I just dropped 10 grams a day recently and already feel better. Sometimes I swear, I dont know which is worse, having kratom or quitting kratom. Both make me cranky. But yeah other than a yawn or so dropping was quite easy. I always struggled at the end. But also had not discovered gabapenbtin when I use to taper off so now i have another tool.

Black seed oil on the way. But I may not use it until I absolutely need too.

 

[PtahTek]

has a experienced precipitated withdrawal from kratom resulting from buprenorphine?

Not I.
Strangely I found bupre and kratom tend to go well together.

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

Have you tried mixing the powdered leaf with something like orange or lemon juice? An acidic fruit juice will draw out more of the alkaloid and make the effect stronger. (Personally don't like the stuff.)

 

[thurston]

Well I’ve been on Kratom a few months but the last week I was shooting fentanyl so as one can imagine my tolerance is “up a bit”

I’ve been taking 5-7 OPMS black caps a day which are:

Leaf extract 50:1 - 310 mg per capsule
Mitragynine content 148 mg per capsule
7-OH mitragynine content <7 mg a capsule

Which is costing me about $60 a day. I’ve tried to stop but it seems the withdrawals are real as much as I’ve laughed at others shit seems to be no joke and I can’t work 60 hours a week with my asshole bleeding or stomach flipping yawning etc.

Wtf do I do from here? My work is in the busy season till October then i get time off I can try and quit then or just the economical
Answer is buy 100
Sub strips for $10 a pop but then there I am right back fucked in the middle.

But really withdrawal is withdrawal right cause it seems this deep on Kratom
Extracts I’m almost as
Deep as a serious withdrawal anyways…

Yes for those who know me I just enjoy putting my body through extreme
Suffering cause there is no other explanation at this point

Kratom withdraw is the worst opiate withdraw I've ever experienced. Your dealing with opiate withdraw and SSRI type withdraw at the same time with kratom. The anxiety is unbelievable.

 

[PtahTek]

at the same time

Never been through full on WDs from kratom but will attest that traditional opioids will not keep me from feeling full relief from stopping kratom but kratom has held off opioid withdrawals. Totally agree that there is some broader head-fuckery when dropping kratom other than just opioid absence.

Answer is buy 100
Sub strips

Is there no middle ground? 100 strips and by your admissions, postings and last sentence this would likely lead to another dependence. Vicious circle....
The biggest issue (elephant in the room) is where is all this self inflicted misery leading? Is there an end game expectation? If there are no ultimate goals there will likely be no end to this and it appears you want out but can't find the door? Am I close? Just sounds a lot like shit I deal with on the regular and somehow got tired enough of the bullshit and like a switch it all "clicked" and I no longer feel enslaved to any substance. This was huge for me cause I had been stuck in many ruts and just didn't see a way out to save my life (literally). The road is still rocky, uphill and pitfalls abound. Kinda seems like I got some new tires or something that provides extra grip.
That being said: I do occasionally drop it in granny-gear and go muddin' I find that getting back on the beaten path is much easier now and will keep maintaining those tires to ensure they do no go slick again.
Where ya trying to get? With a focus point one may at least have a direction to go.
peace

 

[negrogesic]

Not I.
Strangely I found bupre and kratom tend to go well together.

Interesting. Having never heard a report of buprenorphine-induced precipitated withdrawal in someone who is kratom dependent, it made me wonder...

Still, one would think that if someone had say a 50g/day kratom habit and took a few mg of buprenorphine they would get sick. Yet I've never heard of it.

Having you randomly taken buprenorphine while dependent in kratom (without having taken buprenorphine for a while).

 

[PtahTek]

Having you randomly taken buprenorphine while dependent in kratom (without having taken buprenorphine for a while).

A year or so ago (on years of low dose kratom - less than 2g (then) every four or so hours), I ran up on some bupre. Dude (a friend that was heavy into opioids) was giving them away and I had never tried it or subs. I got a handful and commenced to experiment for the next coupla weeks. It did make me sick as hell first dose of bupre. But felt like I had had a decent fix of good h. Wasn't the most unpleasant barfing I have ever had but it lasted an hour or so. I had forgotten about precipitated wds and just did it. Stayed high the rest of that day and into the next morn... no more kratom needed or even though of.
I dropped the bupre by half (cannot remember the dose, now) and took kratom normally a day after and the sick feeling was not as noticeable but the buzz was no more or less and lasted all day. Cut my krat usage down for those two weeks (didn't think of it) and when it all got back to normal the kratom worked as usual.
Haven't had any experiences with bupre since.
Would like to find some reason why this happened but pharmacology and how things work in the brain is not my strong point. Add that to everyones chemistry is different and it is anyones guess.

 

[Xorkoth]

Interesting, you're the first person I've heard say they got sick from bupe after kratom. Though I think usually people are taking it not right after a kratom dose. I know I have always waited until I at least felt a tiny bit of withdrawal. But never experienced any sickness or discomfort at all, in fact bupe always made me feel a whole lot more comfortable than even a dose of kratom would, when I'm addicted to kratom. There is always an element of slight discomfort present constantly al;l day every day when I'm addicted to kratom, even right after taking it. It sucks real bad to be heavily addicted to kratom because I never get 100% relief.

 

[JackARoe]

^ I agree I get a restless discomfort after kratom too at this point. I was taking 40 gr a day and just dropped to 30 and already feel better. Oddly enough kratom causes anxiety in me so although I feel a little more tired from the drop it is a good tired and the anxiety has also dropped a bit.. I think it raises my BP too. So I can honestly say there probably is a point where it makes sense to taper off. I know I can not sleep after kratom to well. I need to be about 7-8 hours after the kratom to get a full nights sleep.

Odd how this stuff causes anxiety in me and to shake sometimes and this drop I just did made me feel better. A healthier tired. I think I just went to far past my expiration date with it. I am not surprised at paradoxal effects.

Although lighter opiods do not work well on kratom I can say a solid glass of poppy tea can hold me perfectly for about 2 days. It seems to roll right over the kratom.

But I am just going to taper the kratom, not really use any heavy meds other than black seed oil and gabapentin. Also a tiny bit of DXM. But I will wait till the end for other meds. Right now I can honestly say a 10 gr drop over the last few days feels freaking good!

 

[Xorkoth]

Same with me, poppy tea works amazingly well on kratom and will hold me for 2 full days. But most other opioids don't work well, it's crazy how much kratom jacks up tolerance.

I miss poppy tea, for years there was a salvage grocery store that sold super cheap and very strong seeds. They still sell them but they are shitty seeds now that I think are the high thebaine ones because I get super itchy but get racing heart rate and anxiety from them. Probably for the best but I have really been craving a nice tall cup of poppy tea.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Just suck it up and stop. There’s nothing milder than kratom, really, as far as opi-o’s go, it’s the last stop on the journey, so just taper off using bulk powder and embrace the hell that is this reality

 

[Xorkoth]

Just suck it up and stop. There’s nothing milder than kratom, really, as far as opi-o’s go, it’s the last stop on the journey, so just taper off using bulk powder and embrace the hell that is this reality

Lots of people say that but a lot of people in really heavy kratom addiction report very intense and difficult withdrawals with restlessness worse than traditional opiates. It's not really very helpful to tell someone they're just being weak, which is what you're implying even if it's not what you intended.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Lots of people say that but a lot of people in really heavy kratom addiction report very intense and difficult withdrawals with restlessness worse than traditional opiates. It's not really very helpful to tell someone they're just being weak, which is what you're implying even if it's not what you intended.

That’s fair enough I suppose. Tbh I’ve never really felt any kind of effects like that upon cessation of kratom, even after extended periods of use, but then again I’ve read many reports from people on here who’ve said stuff like that and I have no reason to doubt them. Didn’t mean to make the OP sound weak and I definitely support him in his endeavors...reading it again, it did perhaps come off as a bit dismissive. I know this site has a ton of resources for people looking to taper off opioids so hopefully he can find whatever it is he’s looking for

I’ve never gone hard with kratom like some people have either...the most I’ve usually done is around 8-10 grams taken as a single dose / day. Never really even considered taking larger doses as it doesn’t really add anything other than potentially severe nausea IME, but I know people do much more and throw in concentrates etc...

One thing that did “trigger” me a little about what the OP said though was, I’d like to stop but being “sick” would take me away from obligations in life (in the OP’s case, his job) so I’ve gotta continue to do whatever it is I wanna quit just to remain functional. I’ve heard that soooo many times, and the OP is probably just trying to do the right thing but I’ve become a bit jaded to it I guess. If abstinence from all opioids is a goal of yours, and you’re taking active measures to reach that goal (I.e. tapering), then by all means, keep consuming it until you feel comfortable taking the final step. But going from kratom to bupe seems counterproductive imo

 

[OpiateKiller]

I take back what I said a bit today I went 24 hours without Kratom
Cause I had work and messed up my supply after a night of drinking.

I mean it wasn’t a fun day I was cold sweating but in my worst methadone or heroin withdrawal doing my job for 10 hours was not possible today was possible just not fun.

So yes the withdrawal seems real but damn Kratom is a miracle substance I really am starting to enjoy its benefits, I can still bust a nut have sex it helps a lot.

Only thing that is odd is as I said it makes me dizzy and feel weird lol

 

[OpiateKiller]

That’s fair enough I suppose. Tbh I’ve never really felt any kind of effects like that upon cessation of kratom, even after extended periods of use, but then again I’ve read many reports from people on here who’ve said stuff like that and I have no reason to doubt them. Didn’t mean to make the OP sound weak and I definitely support him in his endeavors...reading it again, it did perhaps come off as a bit dismissive. I know this site has a ton of resources for people looking to taper off opioids so hopefully he can find whatever it is he’s looking for

I’ve never gone hard with kratom like some people have either...the most I’ve usually done is around 8-10 grams taken as a single dose / day. Never really even considered taking larger doses as it doesn’t really add anything other than potentially severe nausea IME, but I know people do much more and throw in concentrates etc...

One thing that did “trigger” me a little about what the OP said though was, I’d like to stop but being “sick” would take me away from obligations in life (in the OP’s case, his job) so I’ve gotta continue to do whatever it is I wanna quit just to remain functional. I’ve heard that soooo many times, and the OP is probably just trying to do the right thing but I’ve become a bit jaded to it I guess. If abstinence from all opioids is a goal of yours, and you’re taking active measures to reach that goal (I.e. tapering), then by all means, keep consuming it until you feel comfortable taking the final step. But going from kratom to bupe seems counterproductive imo

Your advice is somewhat true in any aspect of quitting a drug you do need to essentially suck it up haha. As much as it’s not really helpful every time I’ve quit heroin or opioids I did accept and embrace that this was the reality of my choices and if I didn’t I never would have got off, I think that’s for everyone I guess or people would just give up .

Yes so if my math is correct my current dosage of Kratom is 65-95 grams of leaf a day on these extracts (the strongest around) but like I said today I went 24 hours without too much trouble but I did drive double the speed limit to the smoke shop after work lol. So ya I didn’t feel peachy