Are there any empathogens that are safe to take often?

[SotPoker1012]

As we all know, taking MDMA too often will at best cause nasty hangovers and stop working, at worst it will fuck your head up for months if taken too much.

Most other empathogens I've found work very similarly (often direct analogues of MDMA) enough that I would be wary of taking them often.

I realize that mushrooms and LSD can be somewhat empathogenic but they are way more traditional psychedelics than empathogens.

So are there any "true" empathogens that can be taken more than once a month safely?

Someone told me than metamphetamine can be mildly empathogenic but it poses a significant enough addiction risk that I am uncomfortable trying it.

Perhaps mescaline is more empathogenic than LSD and shrooms? That is the one psychedelic I haven't tried and I know it had a similar structure to MDMA.

Though MDMA doesn't last very long for me, the peak is one of the best drug experiences I've had and I'd like to have more experiences like it, more often.

I've tried kanna, often marketed as an herbal alternative to MDMA, but for me it's like comparing caffeine to amphetamines. The only way I got any kind of kanna buzz was to take it intranasal - for a 15 minute buzz that didn't match even the weakest MDMA trip. Orally, it feels like a dirtier caffeine more than anything.

To be clear, I'm not hating on kanna, I just think it has very limited use if you're looking for a safer alternative to MDMA. It has plenty of other value. For example, I used it to treat the restless legs when I was withdrawing from opioids in the past.

Someone said that kratom is also somewhat empathogenic and I actually agree. While it's certainly nothing like a roll, it has that same sense of ,"connection" and deep interest in conversation that comes from MDMA. At least when I have low tolerance.

 

[SuperPsych]

You're not going to find a way around the 1 month rule. Anything that provides a roll type experience will be recommended to wait at least a month.

High oral doses of methamphetamine can be similar to MDMA but as you mentioned, there is a significant risk of addiction. I've never tried them but 4-MMC and 3-MMC are said to be similar but those both also carry a risk of addiction. 5-Methyl-Ethylone felt pretty similar to bk-MDMA but I haven't seen it in years.

5-APB/6-APB/5-MAPB are all similar to MDMA but are all recommended to wait at least a month between experiences otherwise you risk losing the magic and risk some unpleasant comedowns and recovery periods.

I don't think its a proper substitute and it has its own risks of addiction and side effects, but DXM can get pretty euphoric and can be somewhat roll-ish in lower doses, but those experiences aren't readily replicated. I used to abuse DXM heavily and I wouldn't recommend using it more often than every couple of weeks at most. I used it at least once a week during my teenage years and I suspect that its had a lasting impact on my mental health.

I've heard lower doses of Mescaline be described as sort of a "MDMA-lite". I've only ever dosed Mescaline between 300-500mg and never found it to be rolly. 2CT2 is probably the most empathogenic psychedelic that I've ever tried though I have never tried aMT. 2CT2 I only tried 2 or 3 timmes but every time was extremely euphoric and the introspection it provided revolved around my interpersonal relationships each time which gave it a sort of roll type vibe

 

[SotPoker1012]

You're not going to find a way around the 1 month rule. Anything that provides a roll type experience will be recommended to wait at least a month.

High oral doses of methamphetamine can be similar to MDMA but as you mentioned, there is a significant risk of addiction. I've never tried them but 4-MMC and 3-MMC are said to be similar but those both also carry a risk of addiction. 5-Methyl-Ethylone felt pretty similar to bk-MDMA but I haven't seen it in years.

5-APB/6-APB/5-MAPB are all similar to MDMA but are all recommended to wait at least a month between experiences otherwise you risk losing the magic and risk some unpleasant comedowns and recovery periods.

I don't think its a proper substitute and it has its own risks of addiction and side effects, but DXM can get pretty euphoric and can be somewhat roll-ish in lower doses, but those experiences aren't readily replicated. I used to abuse DXM heavily and I wouldn't recommend using it more often than every couple of weeks at most. I used it at least once a week during my teenage years and I suspect that its had a lasting impact on my mental health.

I've heard lower doses of Mescaline be described as sort of a "MDMA-lite". I've only ever dosed Mescaline between 300-500mg and never found it to be rolly. 2CT2 is probably the most empathogenic psychedelic that I've ever tried though I have never tried aMT. 2CT2 I only tried 2 or 3 timmes but every time was extremely euphoric and the introspection it provided revolved around my interpersonal relationships each time which gave it a sort of roll type vibe

Thanks for the suggestions.I actually discovered amt for the first time after posting this, but looking at its safety profile, it doesn't seem like something to be abused - even though it isn't directly neurotoxic like mdma and similar. (Note that I make a distinction between responsible recreational use and abuse)

I'm just going to accept that I can't roll every weekend and give it an appropriate amount of time before I take more MDMA or experiment with similar drugs.

I am going to try and find some mescaline. It's the only common psychedelic I haven't tried, and it seems to have a similar safety profile to LSD and shrooms.

 

[fairnymph]

Not for me. Just gotta wait. Closest to MDMA ime are: oral meth (though I personally don’t need that high of a dose 50mg with no tolerance can be quite euphoric), oral 4-MAR, oral methylone, oral 4-MMC (if that’s actually what I had, not another analogue). That’s in descending order of similarity/overall enjoyment. None truly compare and only meth is really worth doing repeatedly imo. I have not tried mescaline, DXM or any APBs. I do not find to any of the 2Cs comparable and they all have nasty side effects.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

150-600 mg of pregabalin. It acts essentially as neuromodulator and it produces high that is cognitively and emotionally "hm everything is very pleasant I want to be friends with people". It is hard to explain.

It is kinda messed up stuff in a way, it gives all kind of weird effects, tolerance grows very easily, it also tends to produce depression for day or two after the high fades, which can take more than 24 hours.

 

[SotPoker1012]

150-600 mg of pregabalin. It acts essentially as neuromodulator and it produces high that is cognitively and emotionally "hm everything is very pleasant I want to be friends with people". It is hard to explain.

It is kinda messed up stuff in a way, it gives all kind of weird effects, tolerance grows very easily, it also tends to produce depression for day or two after the high fades, which can take more than 24 hours.

This is interesting. I was aware of it, but had always assumed it were more like benzos. From your description, it sounds almost a bit like quaaludes. (Not that I've tried one, but my mom was big into them in the heyday and described them to me)

 

[scabbard]

2C-B. I've really come to appreciate that molecule. I liken it to be a cross between MDMA and a traditional psychedelic like LSD or mushrooms. I like it because it's not as long as LSD (or mescaline for that matter), and I've also never had any kind of hangover from it, despite the fact that I do get similar MDMA-ish effects from it. I've done mescaline multiple times as well, but it's just really expensive, and much longer. When I take 2C-B, I always find myself gravitating toward toward my drumset to play music or putting on headphones and engaging in an ecstatic dance session in my apartment, at least in the later portions of the trip. I've also had some incredibly deep and profound experiences during the peak. I would recommend it.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

This is interesting. I was aware of it, but had always assumed it were more like benzos. From your description, it sounds almost a bit like quaaludes. (Not that I've tried one, but my mom was big into them in the heyday and described them to me)

It increases GABA production via changing enzyme presentation in system, but in the end of the day it is voltage-dependent calcium channel blocker that modifies a lot of different neuronal activity for few half-lives.

 

[Nas47]

150-600 mg of pregabalin. It acts essentially as neuromodulator and it produces high that is cognitively and emotionally "hm everything is very pleasant I want to be friends with people". It is hard to explain.

It is kinda messed up stuff in a way, it gives all kind of weird effects, tolerance grows very easily, it also tends to produce depression for day or two after the high fades, which can take more than 24 hours.

take often pregab is not good idea friend...doses around 600mg are really huge....let's take aside tolerance part and eventual addiction....this stuff is practicaly nonmetabolized in the liver....u piss what u take.....good for ur liver,but really bad for ur kidneys in longterm......and liver got the ability to regenerate to some point...somekind a "thanksfull" organ...well that's not the way with the kidneys unfortunately.....keep ur kidneys more than ur liver broda

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

I have not heard about kidney toxicity but I don´t either condone taking it regularly. It will lose magic eventually regularly dosed.

 

[4DQSAR]

Thanks for the suggestions.I actually discovered amt for the first time after posting this, but looking at its safety profile, it doesn't seem like something to be abused - even though it isn't directly neurotoxic like mdma and similar. (Note that I make a distinction between responsible recreational use and abuse)

Isn't AMT rather trippy? I mean, (R) AMT IS an entactogen, and 7-methyl AMT (7a DMT) is an entactogen, but neither seem avaiable.

 

[fairnymph]

150-600 mg of pregabalin. It acts essentially as neuromodulator and it produces high that is cognitively and emotionally "hm everything is very pleasant I want to be friends with people". It is hard to explain.

It is kinda messed up stuff in a way, it gives all kind of weird effects, tolerance grows very easily, it also tends to produce depression for day or two after the high fades, which can take more than 24 hours.

I don’t get any effect like this at all, and I’ve tried a wide range of doses. It’s just a wobbly sedative for me, though it is useful for neuropathic pain.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

yea it has wide range of responders.

It actually resembles alcohol empathy, but it is more logical, less superficial-and also shares qualities with how molly feels. But that is just personal experience.

 

[daturetard]

Ayahuasca and LSA are up there along with mesc but a bit less euphoric than trippy ime all are very entactogenic.

 

[4DQSAR]

I don’t get any effect like this at all, and I’ve tried a wide range of doses. It’s just a wobbly sedative for me, though it is useful for neuropathic pain.

You should watch me after taking gabapentin or pregabalin - I fall over about once every 5 minutes.

Not monster doses either. Not sure if it helped with the existing pain - was busy dealing with pain due to falls ;-)

Amazing that the discoverers got a Nobel Prize part of which was supposed to be that they were not abusable. The guys who discovered benzos said the same...

 

[SotPoker1012]

Isn't AMT rather trippy? I mean, (R) AMT IS an entactogen, and 7-methyl AMT (7a DMT) is an entactogen, but neither seem avaiable.

It's certainly more trippy than MDMA alone, but it's also a simulant and serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine releaser like MDMA which, at least some sources, claim produces a roll-y effect like MDMA.

I haven't tried it myself but the trip reports I read sound a bit similar to taking mushrooms and mdma together.

Though of course every drug is unique.

 

[fairnymph]

yea it has wide range of responders.

It actually resembles alcohol empathy, but it is more logical, less superficial-and also shares qualities with how molly feels. But that is just personal experience.

I don’t find any downers or GABAergics remotely recreational.

 

[fairnymph]

You should watch me after taking gabapentin or pregabalin - I fall over about once every 5 minutes.

Not monster doses either. Not sure if it helped with the existing pain - was busy dealing with pain due to falls ;-)

Amazing that the discoverers got a Nobel Prize part of which was supposed to be that they were not abusable. The guys who discovered benzos said the same...

Oof, I can imagine. What causes you the most pain and what the least? Myself, I am most comfortable when I am lying completely flat or when I am moving quickly and dynamically. Most painful is sitting or standing straight. Train and plane seats (not only am I forced to sit upright but due to my compressed torso, my head is pushed forward so that my spine is in the worst possible alignment) are particularly awful although even being reclined in a passenger car seat is not fun.

 

[4DQSAR]

Standing - walking the weight moves between both arms and my good leg. Standing and it more or less ends up on one leg.

 

[SotPoker1012]

I don’t find any downers or GABAergics remotely recreational.

The only downers I've found recreational were opioids and muscimol(the only GABAergic I like). I've never liked alcohol, and benzos were always medicinal for me as I don't get any kind of high from them. Just some anxiety relief and sedation.

Whereas opioids produce both sedation and euphoria. Sometimes opioids can be borderline psychedelic with CEV during the nod. The best art I made was influenced moreso by this than psychedelics.