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BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic
Kratom Anybody know the MME (morphine equivalent) to Kratom?
- Thread starter pnillyg
- Start date
izo
Bluelighter
You usually find the numbers on Wikipedia. 7-hydroxymitragynine the Most active compound in Kratom is 17x morphine.
^^^I think he's talking about raw kratom itself. Of course these days, some people actually do consume 7-hydroxymitragynine in its isolated form. This is something that was essentially unheard of a few years ago. That said, the 17x figure listed on Wikipedia is based on experimental data. In humans, when taken orally, isolated 7-hydroxymitragynine definitely doesn't feel anything near 17 times the strength of morphine. Keep in mind that that experiment was only measuring how tightly it binds (affinity) to the MOR opioid receptor, but now how effectively it activates the receptor (efficacy). So the 17x figure doesn't mean it produces narcotic effects 17 times stronger than morphine, because in reality 7-hydroxymitragynine has high affinity but low efficacy for the MOR opioid receptor.
Based on my now extensive (too extensive) experience consuming isolated 7-hydroxymitragynine, I'd say in terms of actual analgesic/narcotic effects, 7-hydroxymitragynine, when consumed sublingually & orally, is perhaps half the strength of morphine. So not 17x but rather .5 times. But this estimation is hard to make because it's comparing apples to oranges. Because 7-hydroxymitragynine has low efficacy (activity) at the MOR opioid receptor and as a partial agonist, has a dose ceiling, there is no amount of 7-hydroxymitragynine one could consume that would equate to a very large dose of morphine. For instance, the effect of 500mg of morphine cannot be reproduced by 7-hydroxymitragynine.
But I think the real question being asked here (by the OP) has nothing to do with isolated 7-hydroxymitragynine (and my apologies for further derailing this thread myself by going on about 7-hydroxymitragynine). I believe the OP is talking about kratom itself, the powdered, raw leaves of the plant, consumed orally.
So while keeping in mind that comparing kratom and morphine is a bit like comparing apples to oranges, if one was forced to convert raw kratom powder to MME (aka morphine milligram equivalents), I'd say 5g of kratom is equal to very roughly 5mg of morphine. But generally, MME's are used to compute a daily dose equivalency (for instance when someone taking 80mg/day of oxycodone is hospitalized or entered into a methadone clinic, that 80mg/day will be converted in MME's, which that this case would be an MME of 120).
So if someone takes 50mg of kratom they have an MME of perhaps 50, or maybe 60. The issue is, kratom, in its whole plant form, is more than just an opioid, it acts on adrenergic and serotonin systems, N-type calcium ion channels etc.
Based on my now extensive (too extensive) experience consuming isolated 7-hydroxymitragynine, I'd say in terms of actual analgesic/narcotic effects, 7-hydroxymitragynine, when consumed sublingually & orally, is perhaps half the strength of morphine. So not 17x but rather .5 times. But this estimation is hard to make because it's comparing apples to oranges. Because 7-hydroxymitragynine has low efficacy (activity) at the MOR opioid receptor and as a partial agonist, has a dose ceiling, there is no amount of 7-hydroxymitragynine one could consume that would equate to a very large dose of morphine. For instance, the effect of 500mg of morphine cannot be reproduced by 7-hydroxymitragynine.
But I think the real question being asked here (by the OP) has nothing to do with isolated 7-hydroxymitragynine (and my apologies for further derailing this thread myself by going on about 7-hydroxymitragynine). I believe the OP is talking about kratom itself, the powdered, raw leaves of the plant, consumed orally.
So while keeping in mind that comparing kratom and morphine is a bit like comparing apples to oranges, if one was forced to convert raw kratom powder to MME (aka morphine milligram equivalents), I'd say 5g of kratom is equal to very roughly 5mg of morphine. But generally, MME's are used to compute a daily dose equivalency (for instance when someone taking 80mg/day of oxycodone is hospitalized or entered into a methadone clinic, that 80mg/day will be converted in MME's, which that this case would be an MME of 120).
So if someone takes 50mg of kratom they have an MME of perhaps 50, or maybe 60. The issue is, kratom, in its whole plant form, is more than just an opioid, it acts on adrenergic and serotonin systems, N-type calcium ion channels etc.
THank you for that response yes i only take raw powder and am trying to fihure out if the time comes i need to take subutex, how much i should start with if any
Unless you have a very heavy kratom habit (or kratom extracts) I'd strongly recommend against suboxone or any form of buprenorphine, unless you plan on using suboxone for only a few weeks to help you get off of opioids completely.
But substituting buprenorphine for kratom isn't a good idea in most cases as it's much harder to quit buprenorphine.
Buprenorphine also "feels" weird to me, sort of leaves me jumpy and anxious, along with having some weird, almost dissociative, personality-altering effects. Much rather be hooked on kratom. But using tapered buprenorphine for two weeks as a means of quiting kratom isn't a bad idea.
These days however, with the emergence of commercial products containing isolated 7-hydroxymitragynine, one can get a 'kratom" habit that is of a severe never seen before, since it's impossible to consume enough powder kratom to mimic the effects of say a gram a day 7-hydroxymitragynine habit. Cases like these might call for buprenorphine substitution due to the severity of addiction. I wouldn't call this a kratom habit anymore, nor is it a kratom extract habit (like someone hooked on OPMS liquid shots). Addiction to 7-hydroxymitragynine is more akin to a synthetic opioid habit. The closest I'd liken it to is a tianeptine sodium habit.
Luckily I only take raw powder , and yea I would only use the bupe for acute phase. But then again the last time I said that I was on subs for a year…
Yeah that's what I mean, it's just so easy to get stuck on buprenorphine.