Absinth/Thuyone: GABA-B antagonist

[jasoncrest]

I just read that alpha-thuyone, the substance supposed to give Absinth its psychedelic effects, was a GABA-B antagonist.

I would like to know what is the action of Absinth on the GABAergic system..
(Alcohol affects GABA, but alpha-thuyone blocks some of it, what do you get after a drink of absinth? Only GABA-A receptors activated?)

[I would also like to know if drinking thuyone containing Absinth would put me in withdrawal, as I'm a benzo addict, and thuyone is GABBA-B antagonist?]



Sorry if all this doesn't mean anything, I don't know much in chemistry, move it or delete it if necessary.

 

[Smyth]

Thujone is some junk shit. It is better of used as boot polish than in the human body. Happy 2006 everybody btw

 

[Jamshyd]

Oh no! Not Thujone AGAIN!

I'm sorry, I'm just going to quote myself since I'm tired of fighting the thujone thing over and over again (nothing personal, jasoncrest):

I personally think the whole idea of attributing Absinthe's psychoactive properties to Thujone is utter bullshit.

Common kitchen Sage contains loads of Thujone. Cedar trees (Thuja, hint hint) contain craploads of thujone. Both taste better than wormwood. Why then are we using wormwood, when these two better tasting ones have more thujone in them than wormwood does?

To add to this:

I have previously smoked dried wormwood and had very very definite empathogenic and creative effects.

On another occasion, I did an extraction on Sage, and was left with a sticky brown goo, which I smoked and got absolutely nothing from but a headache. If you're afraid I destroyed the precious thujone by burning it, worry not: I later ate the remainder of the extract, and got a headache. Still worried that the thujone wasn't extracted? Worry not. I had eaten sage raw several times for medicinal and/or spiritual purposes, and never have I experienced anything like wormwood. On the other hand, I had once dared myself to chew on lots of wormwood for as long as I can (btw, you get used to the taste after a while), and experienced typical wormwood effects.

Once again I smoked wormwood, much later, with some tobacco and noticed the same Wormwood effects, but amplified by the tobacco. In fact, it was a pretty euphoric experiece..

I really, really, REALLY think that it is some other constituent (or mixture thereof) in Wormwood that produces the psychoactive effects, and not the thujone.

EDIT: Notice that I'm getting to the core of the matter here: I'm working with Artemisia absynthium, and not a drink with high alcoholic content and questionable plant additives.

Now, to answert your other question, I think whatever effect wormwood has, GABA or not (which I would think is weak at best - thus all the 19th century absynthe drinkers said that too much absynthe will just get you drunk), it probably will be overpowered by ethanol's effects on GABA, which are not antagonistic. I could be wrong though.

 

[jasoncrest]

Oh no! Not Thujone AGAIN!

I'm sorry, I'm just going to quote myself since I'm tired of fighting the thujone thing over and over again (nothing personal, jasoncrest):

I don't care about thuyone. I don't think the pseudo-psychedelic effects of Absinth are due to it; but I have a bottle of real Absinth that tastes actually quite good.... (I have never had any other effect from it other than the effects of alcohol...)

Now, to answert your other question, I think whatever effect wormwood has, GABA or not (which I would think is weak at best - thus all the 19th century absynthe drinkers said that too much absynthe will just get you drunk), it probably will be overpowered by ethanol's effects on GABA, which are not antagonistic. I could be wrong though.

That's what I'm interested in: the GABAergic effect of alcohol overpower the antagonistic effect of thuyone on GABA?

 

[theWorldWithin]

It is my understanding that absinthe is psychedelic because of a synergistic effect. This synergy is mainly between the wormwood, calamus, and alcohol. However many other ingredients in absinthe are believed to be very mildly active alone (anise for example) but when the entire cocktail is put together the effects of the components become much more recreational.

On an interesting note, from a study I was reading a few years ago there was a claim made that the high alcohol content in absinthe is actually nueroprotective against toxicity from wormwood. I would like to find this study for further discussion because it had quite a bit of information on the actions of wormwood.

 

[BilZ0r]

Thujone is a GABA-A antagonist. Not GABA-B.

In an in vitro system, where you can dose ethanol and thujone seperately, thujone would block some of the effects of ethanol. Ethanol has other effects, apart from it's GABAergic effect, and these are probably more important: NMDA receptors, BK and GIRK channels, and calcium channels.

But, in a real body, being given absinthe, there's very little thujone, relative to the ethanol, so you just get drunk.

 

[jasoncrest]

Thujone is a GABA-A antagonist. Not GABA-B.

In an in vitro system, where you can dose ethanol and thujone seperately, thujone would block some of the effects of ethanol. Ethanol has other effects, apart from it's GABAergic effect, and these are probably more important: NMDA receptors, BK and GIRK channels, and calcium channels.

But, in a real body, being given absinthe, there's very little thujone, relative to the ethanol, so you just get drunk.

Thanks! That's exactly what I wanted to know!

(but then I don't understand people smoking "thuyone hash", a GABA-A antagonist is really something I wouldn't want to take... Surely it has some others more important effects...)

 

[Jamshyd]

Thanks! That's exactly what I wanted to know!

(but then I don't understand people smoking "thuyone hash", a GABA-A antagonist is really something I wouldn't want to take... Surely it has some others more important effects...)

"Thujone Hash" would not be pure thujone, it would be an extract of wormwood. It would contain a concentration of all the other chemicals in wormwood, which are definitely (IMO) more responsible for its effects than thujone alone, and I personally find that effect rather pleasant .

 

[BilZ0r]

Yeah, I suspect, if wormwood has plesant effects, it's not thujone that is responsible for it. It's just more pop-pharmacology.

 

[Jamshyd]

Jason: I forgot to add... I personally have a small benzo dependency. I smoke wormwood every now and then (both dry leaf and extract), and I find it does nothing bad. YMMV.

Bil: Yep. Btw, I was wondering if it was possible to use thujone for the purpose of upregulating GABA-A receptors?

 

[BilZ0r]

^ I wouldn't. Chances are that if your benzo tolerant, you might not have a global decrease in GABA-A receptors anyway, just a decrease in benzo-sensitive GABA-A receptors.