Abortion - a necessary part of life

[Beatlebot]

Well the other day I watched the movie Vera Drake, http://www.veradrake.com

It's a film about a woman who 'helps out' girls by going to their homes and performing abortions for them. It struck me that the technique Vera Drake uses in the film would be rather... dangerous and... er... inefficient. So I decided to look it up and found that yes, her favoured technique would be extremely likely to end in the death of the girl she performed it on.

But, the most interesting page I found is this one: http://www.cbctrust.com/nochoice/begin.html
It's a history of abortion throughout the last century from women who lived through it. Most of the stories are from a time when reliable contraceptives were not available and sex education was sketchy at best. Some quotes:

During those many years I have known and seen what women did to themselves when they wanted to abort, if they lived out in the country. They would jump off the roof of the house, or they would fall off a horse. But most of all they would do themselves harm by using instruments of some sort, to make the blood come. They thought by bleeding they would get rid of it.

Interviewer: Did some of these women die from what they did?

Sophia: Yes. Oh yes, and how. They just couldn’t take it. When they had a house full of children on a farm or in a small town and couldn’t afford even the children they already had — it made it hard.

Interviewer: Can you think of a particular incident, a particular woman who might have had a self-induced abortion?

Sophia: It was in 1930. <snip> I was in the hospital while my son was born. The same night they brought in a woman who wanted to abort. The doctor explained to me what that woman had done to herself. He said that he didn’t know why women have to do such terrible things to themselves, when they could come and see a doctor. I asked, “Would you abort a child?” He said, no, but he didn’t understand how, with what this woman had done, she could even live long enough to get to the hospital.
What she had done was explode something inside her body. She used a firecracker or something like that, in order to open up her womb. Can you imagine? I was just stunned, I couldn’t imagine that anybody would ever want to do anything like that. Well she just couldn’t take it, she had children, and she didn’t want any more children, and life was very bad for her. After she did that she came to the hospital, but she didn’t live. That’s one thing that really stayed in my mind for a long time. Can you imagine a woman doing that? It’s really something.

I’ll never get over that if I live to be a hundred and ten. But, as far as this terrible trauma one is supposed to suffer after an abortion — it’s nuts. It is all induced by other people. Because as far as I was concerned the pregnancy I aborted was a threat — a threat to my life — a threat to everybody — and to the baby I already had.

My next-door neighbour was Mrs. Parks, a trained nurse, who gave me some ideas and assistance. I had obtained from a drug store a stick of slippery elm bark. (Slippery elm bark, soon afterwards, became banned from sale.) Moistened, it became very gelatinous. With this stick I entered the cervix, then packed it in place with yards of gauze soaked in lanolin oil. With my short fingers this was difficult to do, but I did it. This was held in place with a menstrual pad. I continued doing this (nearly two weeks) until the time of my regular menstruation, when everything came away. Three months along, I could see the fetus, fairly formed. Contrary to propaganda, I was not sad, but triumphant, for I had succeeded in what I had attempted. Had no trouble in recovering from this, a bit weak. No regrets.

All this got me thinking. These women risked their lives at backstreet aborionists or by trying to do it themselves at home. Some of them would have become sick and died, some of them would only have to go through it all over again in a few months time. We're very lucky to live in the time and place we do where we control our lives through controlling our fertilty. I can't help feeling that if I lived during the thirties I could be dead by now, or living with too many children in desperate circumstances.

When our children are depedent on us for so long, and childbirth itself is so dangerous, it seems strange that we are physically able to keep having children we can't support, endangering the children we already have. It makes me think that the human reproduction system in fundamentally flawed, since we have no way of naturally controlling our fertility.

Abortion, to these women, wasn't a crime against their unborn baby but a necessary part of their lives that ensured their own future and the future of their already existing children. It just wasn't talked about. The real crime was making abortion and contraception illegal, thus forcing women into desperate circumstances and often making orphans of their children.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

agreed.
what people also forget is that throughout human history women have had access to plants/herbs that induced abortions and controled fertility.

 

[L O V E L I F E]

Abortion, to these women, wasn't a crime against their unborn baby but a necessary part of their lives that ensured their own future and the future of their already existing children.

And the holocaust, to the Nazis, wasn't a crime against Jews, but rather, a necessary part of cleansing the human race.

I'm not equating abortion with the holocaust.

I'm merely illustrating that just because someone has a defensible (to them) motive for partaking in a certain activity, that doesn't absolve them of their responsibility to not unfairly hurt others in the process.

 

[ravbutterfly2]

I agree also. 11 years ago I decided to have an abortion. I was 16 still in high school and very naive. It is something that I regret now because Im 27 and have been told that I cant have children due to my health. I believe in pro-choice, but I think it is something that women should have to consider the facts and all the risks involved.

 

[AlphaCharlieID]

I agree..
A few years ago, i had an abortion, at that time, my body could not handle carrying a baby full term, i was young, so i went to a dodgy place in a town over, so my parents wouldnt know, i ended up getting very sick, and spending about a month in hospital recovering from an infection i got.

I also found out whilst in hospital i had cancer on one of my overies, so i had it removed.
Now my chances of having a child are very slim, i do very much regret what i did...

 

[Sticky Green]

I'm merely illustrating that just because someone has a defensible (to them) motive for partaking in a certain activity, that doesn't absolve them of their responsibility to not unfairly hurt others in the process.

.....and much of the abortion debate is dependant on whether the unborn baby is even considered and "other."

 

[psychetool]

Abortion is fucked up, you don't just murder a child but you destroy potential as well.

 

[Beatlebot]

And the holocaust, to the Nazis, wasn't a crime against Jews, but rather, a necessary part of cleansing the human race.

I'm not equating abortion with the holocaust.

And yet, you just did.

I'm merely illustrating that just because someone has a defensible (to them) motive for partaking in a certain activity, that doesn't absolve them of their responsibility to not unfairly hurt others in the process.

By equating abortion to the holocaust? I don't see how your comment applies to the abortion situation at all.

Unless you're talking about hard line right wingers with their defensible (to them) motives for restricting women's access to safe abortions and therefore hurting them in the process.

Is that what you meant?

 

[mariacallas]

Abortion, to these women, wasn't a crime against their unborn baby but a necessary part of their lives that ensured their own future and the future of their already existing children. It just wasn't talked about. The real crime was making abortion and contraception illegal, thus forcing women into desperate circumstances and often making orphans of their children.

I agree. I'm a catholic and yet I'm pro choice. Ive seen many friends of mine ruin their own lives and eventually even their childrens because they were not given the option of making a choice. In my predominantly Catholic country abortion is illegal and taboo. I have very few close friends who aborted by means of drugs such as Cytotec (misoprostil) and altho successfull, it is very traumatizing and made more difficult because of the stigma here that is quite different from how abortion is viewed in America or Europe for example.
This is MY f*cking experience and my own belief and if any overzealous fundie nut is going to question what I've just said, advice: Dont. You're just wasting your time.

 

[AmorRoark]

I don't really want to enter this argument... but, I'm still confused as to why so many arguements about abortion fail to address the option of adoption. I mean, I understand that certain cultures would never allow a child to be adopted, but generally, it's possible. I mean, even in the situation you provided, beatlebot:

can't help feeling that if I lived during the thirties I could be dead by now, or living with too many children in desperate circumstances.

it was permissable.

 

[MazDan]

It makes me think that the human reproduction system in fundamentally flawed, since we have no way of naturally controlling our fertility.
.

I think you will find that the reason it is like it is, is so nature canb ensure the survival of the species.

If nature had its way we would be churning them out like nobodies business and the survival of the fittest concept that rules everywhere else would take effect.

This in turn allows for natural selection and hence the long term improvement of the race.




That being said, I am in favour of people being able to decide, it is not for me to tell someone what is righht and wrong for them as i cant walk in there shoes to see what they are going through.

 

[DigitalDuality]

Agreed AmorRoark, adoption as an option always gets pushed to the side when the two moral camps in this arguement start butting heads. Not only that, but i see there's also two other sides to this that get lost along the way. People either talk about politics/religion and beliefs.... or they talk human emotion and experience. People tend to have a hard time thinking of both..or at least arguing/explaining both.

I'm pro-choice by all means, and i'm not quite sure as to whether to consider a zygote or a fetus..a life. A potential life, definately, but so is a sperm or an egg. It all comes down to belief. I can't really preach to others though. The only thing i know is, i'd stand up to support and raise a child if that came to be and i wouldn't put pressure on a woman one way or another.

I've dated a girl who got pregnant (by cheating) and she just wasn't all that bright. She was the 2nd girlfriend i'd ever had..and instead of getting an operation she threw herself down some steps. I've had numerous friends that have suffered through mis-carriages.. and i've taken a friend to a clinic for the operation when her parents turned their backs and her boyfriend walked out on her. I've had many a friend in desperate situations..give birth and make the best of it. So maybe not first hand, but i've seen enough to make up my mind in how i'd handle the situation.

I don't have un-safe sex with anyone though, without knowing damn well the possible consequences...and with the belief that i'd stand by that person regardless of what would happen. I DO expect though that the girl making that choice at least discusses with me and finds out my f eelings before making that choice. I recently found out from a friend.. of a girl i used to live with, that she had an abortion that could've been mine. Not sure and i hadn't verified it... it shook me up a bit, but like i said.. i don't know what happened.

There are morons in this world that think it's just another form of birth control. I can't buy that. You don't know. Neither do i. Our belief on when life begins.. is just that. A belief. We're not god, if there is one. So though i'm pro-choice.. i do err on a bit of moral conservatism here. Anyone, whether this is logical or not, who tries to argue that it's merely just a couples of cells or tissue.. probably hasn't had an abortion themselves.. nor talked to many women and seen the emotional damage having an abortion does to them. Even if its only our own emotions getting wrapped up in the possibilities.. or some neuro-chemical reaction to screwing up a natural process that causes this emotional downside.. i think it's enough to at least say it's more than just tissue.

I do see it as a necessary part of life though and i think the article does a decent, thought not completely thorough, showing of that.

 

[Beatlebot]

I think you will find that the reason it is like it is, is so nature canb ensure the survival of the species.

If nature had its way we would be churning them out like nobodies business and the survival of the fittest concept that rules everywhere else would take effect.

This in turn allows for natural selection and hence the long term improvement of the race.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, but I still don't see how our reproductive system could work if everything was just left to nature.

Imagine a world with no contraception or abortion, where everything is just left to nature. A woman would come of age, meet the right man (hopefully) and they would have a child together. So she's pregnant for nine months and then has her child. Breastfeeding is said to help control a woman's fertility in the first six months, so assuming the best, she has a total of 15 months where she can't get pregnant.

Now, I became sexually active at the age of 17 and I'm 25 now. So if lived in a world of no contraception or abortion then I would have about six kids by now, maybe seven. I would not have been able to work due to constant pregnancy and child rearing, so I would be completely dependent on the goodwill of my partner to provide for me. I still have roughly 30 years of child bearing left to go when eight years has left me with (a possible) seven children.

Now obviously not all these children are going to be able to survive. Sure, there could be a few natural miscarriages along the way, in fact it's likely, but it's also likely that the strain of alot of pregnancies could kill me and leave my children without a primary caregiver. When children are dependent for so long this could be fatal for them.

Other animals only breed in seasons, or have other natural ways of controlling their fertility. Rabbits can actually absorb their young in the womb if conditions are not favourable. It just seems strange to me that without science, our bodies are outside of our control and a woman would keep breeding till it killed her.

I'm just very thankful that I do have a choice.

 

[grinspoon]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, but I still don't see how our reproductive system could work if everything was just left to nature.

Imagine a world with no contraception or abortion, where everything is just left to nature. A woman would come of age, meet the right man (hopefully) and they would have a child together. So she's pregnant for nine months and then has her child. Breastfeeding is said to help control a woman's fertility in the first six months, so assuming the best, she has a total of 15 months where she can't get pregnant.

Now, I became sexually active at the age of 17 and I'm 25 now. So if lived in a world of no contraception or abortion then I would have about six kids by now, maybe seven. I would not have been able to work due to constant pregnancy and child rearing, so I would be completely dependent on the goodwill of my partner to provide for me. I still have roughly 30 years of child bearing left to go when eight years has left me with (a possible) seven children.

Now obviously not all these children are going to be able to survive. Sure, there could be a few natural miscarriages along the way, in fact it's likely, but it's also likely that the strain of alot of pregnancies could kill me and leave my children without a primary caregiver. When children are dependent for so long this could be fatal for them.

Other animals only breed in seasons, or have other natural ways of controlling their fertility. Rabbits can actually absorb their young in the womb if conditions are not favourable. It just seems strange to me that without science, our bodies are outside of our control and a woman would keep breeding till it killed her.

I'm just very thankful that I do have a choice.

going on that theory, the reason the world would be fucked up is because its in moral decay. you would have six kids by now because you couldnt abstain...
and you want a guy to keep it in his pants ?8)

we DONT live in a world of non contraception, so your argument wouldnt hold piss. if people would have some fucking scruples and think of the results of their actions, our child welfare would be better taken care of...

shit, i sure wish i had the 'choice' to kill... kill irresponsible human trash.

 

[Beatlebot]

going on that theory, the reason the world would be fucked up is because its in moral decay. you would have six kids by now because you couldnt abstain...
and you want a guy to keep it in his pants ?8)

Well the point is, throughout history people have failed to abstain. If it helps you understand, imagine that the in the example I gave above I married the first man I ever had sex with and stayed with him, but I hardly think it makes a difference.

we DONT live in a world of non contraception, so your argument wouldnt hold piss.

What argument? Abortion is a fact of life and always has been, legal or illegal. I simply wish it remain legal to save lives, but as you said…

shit, i sure wish i had the 'choice' to kill... kill irresponsible human trash.

Ah, the classic let's kill people to save lives approach. Good one. Wasn’t that what you were arguing against?

Now unless you can argue in a mature manner, you might want to just save your effort and leave this thread alone. I don’t want human trash like you ruining my thoughtful thread.

 

[drug_wench]

abortion wud b the way id go if i got pregnant - i know im too fucked up to have a kid, id hav 2 come off the medication i nd to take cos it harms the baby in the womb, and frankly i think im in way the wrong condition physically 2 hav a baby - it wud b a mal-nourished kid born wiv drug withdrawals
thats only speaking 4 myself but i will bet im not the only one out there in this position
sumtimes i think kids r better not born than born into the lives theyre born into

 

[happyus]

i would rather see a thousand women a year choose to have a legal safe abortion,than a thousand babies a year going into care homes because they cannot be looked after by thier parents.i know that it will be incredibly difficult for me to concieve and carry a baby to full term due to various medical problems,but i also know regardless of this that if at this moment in time i fell pregnant,that i would have an abortion.i am not physically or mentally able to put myself in a position of having to care and look after a small person and i would not be confident enough to say my partner will stay with me and our child for the next 18 years,noone can say that at only 18yrs themselves.
and as for adoption,i would not want to carry a baby for nine months,give birth to it and then hand it over to a stranger.

 

[exarkann]

i'm adopted. in my personal experience with myself and other adoptees, we are one fucked up bunch. massive abandonment issues, problems getting close to others, depression.... the list goes on.

also, i have been involved with two abortions now, both with the same girl. one was an "accident" while she was on birth control, the other, unintended, but the result of sex while she wasnt on the pill. but in both cases, we looked over our abilities to care for a child, mentally, monetarily, and physically... in both instances we decided it was best to end the pregnancy while it was in its early stages. we feel that as long as the group of cells is unable to survive outside the host, it is part of the host, and therefore subject to whatever wishes the host has.

 

[glitterbizkit]

i'm adopted. in my personal experience with myself and other adoptees, we are one fucked up bunch. massive abandonment issues, problems getting close to others, depression.... the list goes on.

I had a boyfriend who was adopted, and he pretty much felt the same. Personally I prefer the idea of abortion to adoption, seeing as how there are enough children without parents on this planet already.

 

[roshy]

Woah, this is a pretty heated issue.

Alright, I come from a town where the cycle is pretty ingrained-- fucked up parents have fucked up children, who grow up to fuck up their own kids. There's a lot of drug and alcohol abuse, STD's, crime. Addiction and misery are like hobbies in this town.

I would prefer a girl have an abortion today, than have her daughter have an abortion 15 years in the future. Does that make sense?

The fact is, that a lot of the women who have abortions simply aren't equipped to deal with a future that involves a child in it. They don't have the money, or emotional resources. They often can't take care of themselves let alone another person. Often, the lives these potential children would be born into will involve poverty, emotional pain, and often abuse.

The market for adoption is pretty poor-- people want healthy, white babies. Who wants the babies born to the crackheads, the ones who are born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, the one who are addicted to speed the moment they are born? A few saints do, but these saints are by no means the majority of the blank-faced public. So these kids will be shunted from foster home to foster home, often to repeat the same cycle of violence and misery that their parents did anyway.

I know for a fact that if I got pregnant tomorrow, I would not carry it to term. I am on contraception to avoid that decision, and it is not a decision I make lightly or happily-- but it is the one that is right for me at this time of life. I can't take care of a child. I am not in a position where I could even carry it for nine months. And it makes me unhappy that while I am too fertile for my liking, I have relatives who have been pining for a baby for years. But it's not about them. It's about me. And it is a decision that I should be free to make for MYSELF.

Many people fought long and hard for our right to have so many different forms of contraception. That should always be the primary choice. Abortion was never supposed to be the one and only form of birth control-- I just hope that people figure that out.