Bupe A Very Specific Question on Breaking Through Bupe

[Shvibzik]

Hey BL,
I was wondering if anyone could answer a question I've had for awhile.

I am on 1.5 mg Suboxone/day. Once every few months I wait 24 hours and "break through" with a 60 mg shot of Oxycodone that works pretty well. My question is, once you break through the Bupe successfully and get high (more than just a 20 second rush), is the barrier broken until you dose Bupe again?

I find that I don't get high eating pills once I've IVed that day, but I prefer to take them orally. My thought was, I can wait 24-30 hours, IV 60 mg oxy (which will give me a couple hours of nodding and itching), go to sleep, and when I wake up the following morning take the 70 mg Hydrocodone I will CWE (of course). Will this work because the barrier was already broken the day before? I know I can't get high after 24 hours without a needle (at least not when I was on 2 mg day) I'm hoping after 36 hours and having already broken through the day before it will work.

So the question is, once you break the blockade effect of Bupe, is it broken until redosed?

 

[BanginMyLifeAway]

i think so from my experiences i say so

 

[Cane2theLeft]

The bupe blockade effect is rather limited at 1.5mg a day (assuming you're using it sublingually). You're really only going get the prolonged, full blockade effect at 4mg+ from my understanding.

The buprenorphine has a strong affinity but at 1.5mg I don't believe it saturates the receptors to the extent that you won't feel any effects from taking full agonists that long after so its not so much that you're breaking through a receptor blockade but that you have free receptors that the full agonists are able to bind to. The effects may be dimished somewhat at this point but not blocked.

This is my understanding through reading about this subject and following discussions here on this subject but understand I don't have personal experience with buprenorphine so take this for what its worth.

I'm sure more educated and experienced users will be able to shed more light on this and correct any inaccuracies.

 

[dramatica]

I am not necessarily qualified to answer this, but my first reaction would be to say no. Bupe will remain in your body after you break through. The oxy you shoot before bed, having a much shorter half life, will be mostly gone by the time you wake up, but there will still be some bupe kickin around. This can now block the hydro that you want to take in the morning.

Of course, all this time, the bupe is slowly metabolizing and being eliminated from your body. So I think what it really comes down to is how much time you've left since your last dose of bupe. But to answer your question I would say no.

Someone else can hopefully confirm or deny this.

edit: had not read Cane's reply before writing this

 

[Shvibzik]

Actually Cane, you'd be surprised. At 2 mg/day I once waited 30 hours and ate 3 Roxi 30s and did not feel anything, my pupils did not shrink. Though, based on what others have said, there is a much bigger difference in blockade strength between under 2 mg and 2 mg +

Normally I'd just shoot up again but I'm
Not messing w shooting Vicodin.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

Assuming you did still have a substantial blockade effect after this time normally from this dose, dramatica is right. Once the 'broken through' dose wears off, the buprenorphine will still be working.

Its the same when someone OD's on a long acting full agonist such as methadone- since naloxone is such a short acting antagonist, in emergency settings they have to keep administering it regularly until the methadone is below a threshold so its not longer at dangerous levels. If they administered 1 shot of naloxone only, after a short time the person would show the symptoms of methadone overdose once the naloxone wore off.

EDIT: (after reading your response)

Definitely do not risk IV'ing hydrocodone, the risk for pulmonary edema is very serious.

When I use 'blockade' I mean full blockade where you'd have to massively exceed your tolerance to override the buprenorphine, smaller doses will certainly dimish the effects substantially for some time after dosing the bupe however.

 

[Pegasus]

Oral absorption is only a little less than IV for oxycodone, remember this when figuring out how much will be necessary to get the same effect. Around 70-90% of the IV dose is absorbed orally, so you lose 10-30%.

You're not really breaking the blockade with your dose; you are waiting 24 hours for it to mostly wear off and then dosing high to get past any residual effects. At this point, you could eat the oxy and get effects, but you would need a little more. The next morning, you'd need even less. The blockade is not in full effect in the first place though; many opiate receptors in the brain are free by the time you even IV the initial dose, and they will remain free until you put an opiate back on them!

Also, it is definitely possible for there to be a blockade at 2mg daily but not 1.5mg... Past 2mg is where the blockade usually begins, somewhere between 2 and 4mg for most...

 

[comatoserct]

I do anywhere from 1-3mg of suboxone a day, daily, and if I wait 16-24 hours and take a big shot of good heroin, I feel it, but it's just not the same. every time I plan on taking a "vacation" I like to buy some hydrocodone/poppy pods and use those until about 60-70 hours has passed, then shoot the dope. Just because you felt the 60mg oxy IV'ed doesn't mean it's going to take away the bupe in your system, it just means you took enough of a full agonist to overpower the suboxone

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^ right

What peg and I were saying is that <2mg = diminshed effects from other opioids where 2mg-4mg for most people is where you get full blockade where you get no effect from even quite large doses of opioids (relative to tolerance).

I think some of the confusion was referring to the diminished effects as the blockade when we meant TOTAL blockade.

 

[cowmama]

I can do 1.5 mg bupe in the morning, and shoot 80mg oxy in the afternoon and its awesome. I just keep the bupe under 2mg/day to be able to do this.

 

[Been&Done]

^^^But why are you doing so? Im sure you'll feel better if u miss the morning bupe dose. As for the OP question, i think you go the answers up there, the blockade effect is from waiting the 24 hours and not from your full agonist, and you'll keep feeling your opiate, even more with time as daily Bupe tend to add up in the body, until you redose.

 

[waldo777]

I've been on Bupe for longer than I'd like to say and have had many an experience with these "vacations". The general consensus on this thread is pretty accurate IME. I'd say that any full agonist taken 24-48 hours after taking more than 1-2mg of Bupe will result in significantly diminished, if not completely blocked, effects from that full agonist. But, with a large enough dose, some effects will be felt, but as stated, they will be mild at best.
However, IME, the length of time one has been on Bupe prior to taking their "vacation" is equally, if not more determinative, of how one will experience the effects of a full agonist. e.g.; if one has been on Bupe for a year straight, that person will experience weaker effects than someone who has taken Bupe just once, even though both people waited an equal amount of time and took the same final dose of Bupe. This is what I believe the issue to be when talking about "breaking through". The person who took Bupe just once and was able to get high will be able to get high again later, whereas the person who's been on Bupe for a year may take a dose strong enough to get them high, but they will still experience weaker effects with their next dose. Just my experience, beliefs. Sorry if that was a bit convoluted.

 

[Shvibzik]

Well, my experience was that the shot messed
Me up good for a couple of hours..and the vicodin gave me a good nod, but little euphoria.

I'm almost off the suboxone, and when I am
I can possibly indulge sometimes without such high risk..shooting through sub in a non hospital setting just can't be safe. And honestly..I don't know if I can do dope once in awhile. I'd rather not. To me, this shit is an evil force and it really wants
Me dead. And to everyone who CAN do dope once in awhile (don't get me
Wrong I believe some can). I'M JEALOUS