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a question about the profit motive...

ebola?

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why does it exist?
I'm not talking about the simple utility maximizing drive (to borrow the language of bourgeois economics), but the drive on the part of the capitalist to increase her profits. Although the capitalist lives a luxurious life in comparison to the many prole's, the difference in the degree of luxury is not proportional to the difference in incomes of the two groups. Why? Because the capitalist is compelled to reinvest in the means of production to continue her business. But why is that? Why the hell would anyone stay in business after making a billion (unless being a capitalist is, like, the most fun thing EVAR)? Why not sell everything off and party it up? Is there some sort of shared psychopathology here?

ebola
 
more money = more power, for one.

Reputation/ego probably comes into play as well. Perhaps the satisfaction of knowing that something you built from the ground up dominates whatever feild you are in?

Maybe you like to see progress in the feild of your business?

many reasons.
 
ebola! said:
why does it exist?
I'm not talking about the simple utility maximizing drive (to borrow the language of bourgeois economics), but the drive on the part of the capitalist to increase her profits. Although the capitalist lives a luxurious life in comparison to the many prole's, the difference in the degree of luxury is not proportional to the difference in incomes of the two groups. Why? Because the capitalist is compelled to reinvest in the means of production to continue her business. But why is that? Why the hell would anyone stay in business after making a billion (unless being a capitalist is, like, the most fun thing EVAR)? Why not sell everything off and party it up? Is there some sort of shared psychopathology here?

ebola

Since your glasses are tinted "red", you look over a very self-evident principle: personal pleasure. Is it not obvious that for someone to continue doing something, it must be more pleasurable, self-satisfying, than the alternative/alternatives?

Also, by what logic do you consider ambition, drive and success a mental "illness"?
 
>>Since your glasses are tinted "red", you look over a very self-evident principle: personal pleasure. Is it not obvious that for someone to continue doing something, it must be more pleasurable, self-satisfying, than the alternative/alternatives>>

One man's self-evidently true axiom is another's tautology. I will concede that people act in their self interest, but when this self-interest also includes the most extreme altruistic behavior, what have we explained, really? How can the utility-maximizing principle evaluate behavior when it includes anything anyone ever does? What would constitute disconfirmation of this principal?

I was thinking more in terms of the constrained subjective-utility theory of vulgar microeconomics whereby utility is realized through purchase of goods in the marketplace. What would be the point of amassing wealth that could never be spent? That leads us to the question of what forces make it pleasurable to forever expand one's wealth beyond what one can spend...that is what I was getting at.

And my glasses are red and black, thank you. :)

>>Also, by what logic do you consider ambition, drive and success a mental "illness"?>>

I was being marginally faceteous, but the profit motive could constitute a cultural disorder...whereby we are left with a patently unsustainable economy.

ebola
 
Its not just a job, it would be a lifestyle and you'd have to make a lot of sacrifices to get there plus your money would be tied up in a lot of tihngs. To suddenly give up everything and sell out would incure a loss in potential worth and what would you do then? Grow roses? Though very few people become super rich, most just spend years in a job to buy a large house and a few cars.
 
>>To suddenly give up everything and sell out would incure a loss in potential worth and what would you do then?>>

right...but is a loss in worth from 2 billion to 1 billion really all that tangible?
Would my life be so different? I wouldn't grow roses...but I'd likely find something more entertaining than my previous job in the board-room.

>>Though very few people become super rich, most just spend years in a job to buy a large house and a few cars.>>

right, and I'm talking exclusively about those few, those who actually stand to profit.

ebola
 
ebola! said:
why does it exist?
I'm not talking about the simple utility maximizing drive (to borrow the language of bourgeois economics), but the drive on the part of the capitalist to increase her profits. Although the capitalist lives a luxurious life in comparison to the many prole's, the difference in the degree of luxury is not proportional to the difference in incomes of the two groups. Why? Because the capitalist is compelled to reinvest in the means of production to continue her business. But why is that? Why the hell would anyone stay in business after making a billion (unless being a capitalist is, like, the most fun thing EVAR)? Why not sell everything off and party it up? Is there some sort of shared psychopathology here?

ebola

It's a cancerous tumour... It grows merely for growths sake.
 
Why the hell would anyone stay in business after making a billion
Because it isn't the money they are after. People who make a billion dollars have just as much motivation to continue their work (whatever it is), as they had when they were just starting. That's how they got the billion in the first place. The types of people who make that kind of money, the globe-trotter jet-set type, are thoroughly addicted to what they are doing, which is essentially playing SimCity. We've all been there before, in those types of games...where you build up your city from humble beginnings into a bustling metropolis. Eventually, you have so much money that it doesn't matter anymore (you can build anything, buy any special buildings, etc). But then, people like to re-organize things, rebuild, and expand. Why would this change after you have even MORE means to do so>?
 
I personally think that its a self-esteem issue and that people who continue to dedicate their entire life to making money + not spending any of it for anything other then the bare minimum are just getting more money because it makes them feel better about themselves. I'm not saying that this applies to everybody, but I could see it being the case for a lot of people.

Also, it could be like a game or something? See how much money you can get into your bank account(s) + value of personal possesions before you die?
 
Someone here posted that capitalism and greed are diseases forced upon us shortly after birth, and it's very very true. Parents tell their fuckin' kids that if they do well in school/college/whatever, they'll be successful and be able to buy whatever they want. How many parents tell their kids that what's really important is to engage in work that benefits society as a whole? My parents never told me that, not that they are bad people at all.

Growth for growth's sake creates a situation where wealth/property is aggregated in the hands of a few, while the rest of us poor slobs have to borrow (aka. finance/lease) just to have a place to live and a way to get around. It's my opinion (one that I will never waver from) that the wealthy (I'm talkin about multimillion/billionares here) have an obligation to society to use their wealth/power/influence for the common good. What we see now is quite the opposite -- the wealthy use the money they've aquired off the backs of others for their own personal pleasures, while hundreds of thousands of people go hungry and live homelessly in the RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. When a poor person can't pay their bills, they get what little they have taken away in the name of 'policy'. Who's policy? Why, those who have all the wealth, of course.

Forgive my rambling on, but the point I'm trying to make is that capitalism by it's very nature is unsustainable for the population as a whole. We in this country think we are free? Fuck that, we're wage-slaves. We put up with the endless bullshit from our employers (except of course, for the self-employed) because we don't wanna lose our jobs, and because we know that wherever we work is gonna be the same fuckin' bullshit. We think maybe if we swallow enough crap, we might get ahead somehow. When we do get ahead, what do we do? Buy that big-body benz, the house on the hill, and before we know it, our lifestyle has caught up with our income, and we're in need of 'moving up' again. In the corporate world, moving up eventually involves some sort of backstabbing, which is usually justified by, "well she would have done the same to me." For the love of god, the youth of our society embrace a culture which reeks of greed -- we listen to fuckin' music sung by 'artists' who do nothing but brag about how much they have in relation to YOU. Who the hell do you think 50 was talkin' to when he said, 'you been hustlin' a long time, but you aint got nothing.'? Who is you? YOU, the listener, of course! Who else?

I could go on and on about this, but I think you all get the point. When material wealth increases, so usually does the thirst for more. This feedback loop creates nothing... except growth for growth's sake. Before long, you forget all the 'little people' you used to know (some of which you may have stepped on during your climb to the top), and the only thing that matters is that next promotion/making partner/the new boat/the trophy wife/etc.

In a true democracy (which does not exist anywhere on this planet that I am aware of), property would be distributed as widely as possible -- EVERYONE would have something. Instead, we live in a nation, a world of corporate gods and our leaders' bogeymen (terrorists/etc). I can't help but think that the crisis underway in the middle east is the start of something larger which will either end in widespread enlightenment or widespread devastation -- the thirst for money seems to be at the heart of it. Think about it, if Iraq had no natural resources, do you think anybody would be over there trying to 'liberate' them? My best guess is, probably not.

The wheel of society is spinning faster and faster, and the center of the wheel is weak from greed/corruption. What will happen when the wheel flies apart at top speed?
 
I don't care right now. I spent the last of my money last night on a domain, and server, and I'm fucking hunger, and won't ahve more till thursday.:X

My account was lagging, and a charge enver showed up.
 
IMO it is just that you are taught that you have to work to live, and you simply accept it because everyone else seems to be doing the same, it is just not possible that everyone is wrong.

Then you start to make money and you think "fuck, I really do have money now, I'm gonna quit and start to party - but hey, what will people think of me? Let me do the following, I'll do this only until I'm 40, then I'll quit, no matter what"

Guess what? You are now 40. You are unhappy, but you have money. You are successfull (wtf?), are a manager or shit like that in a huge multinational company. Can you really quit? Are you going to throw these 40 years in the garbage? "I think I'm stuck here, I'll pretend I'm happy and keep doing the same - I am sure people will look at me and think they want to be like me - but I can't never confess to anyone my lil secret"

Sorry if text is confusing, english is not my mothertongue and I did not review what I wrote. Problem is that I'm at my 30s and facing this decision right now "should I keep doing the same until 40 or quit right now and go travel the world as I always wished"

Your thoughts please,

cheers, ric
 
Maybe, just maybe, they enjoy what they do? Maybe some guy started off young and went to college so he could start up an Engineering firm of his own and design structures that could help the world, save lives, improve the community, only to find himself a rich ass bastard 40 years later with a heap of accomplishments to his name? Maybe some young guys got together and started up a company with the dream of one day seeing a world filled with personal computers, not seeing the end result but striving each step of the way because - gasp - they enjoyed it.

Get over this rhetoric about capitalism and insanity - its tired. Some people actually like working hard. I'm sorry you don't - maybe welfare and social security will take care of your lazy proletareat ass while I go out and get a damned job and do something with my time on this planet to the benifit of those around me.
 
>>Get over this rhetoric about capitalism and insanity - its tired.>>

Maybe the psychopathology remark was a bit heavy handed...I did say I was being marginally faceteous though.

>>Some people actually like working hard. I'm sorry you don't - maybe welfare and social security will take care of your lazy proletareat ass while I go out and get a damned job and do something with my time on this planet to the benifit of those around me.>>

You seem to be engaging a hypothetical individual constructed out of your own assumptions about others. That person has not posted to this thread.

ebola
 
What's the point of the liberal doctrine but to create mass equality ala communism? To protect the weak from the strong? Protect the poor from the rich? To protect the lazy from the adept?

I agree that certain limits should be in place but what true "liberalism" calls for is not feasible. You cannot have a functional world without some form of economic incentive to work hard. Competition breeds productivity and the true liberal ideal would seek to kill the human drive for betterment through a policy of equality by universal poverty.
 
^^^^^^^^^^
hmmm...I'll let a liberal field this one.

>>Guess what? You are now 40. You are unhappy, but you have money. You are successfull (wtf?), are a manager or shit like that in a huge multinational company. Can you really quit? Are you going to throw these 40 years in the garbage? "I think I'm stuck here, I'll pretend I'm happy and keep doing the same - I am sure people will look at me and think they want to be like me - but I can't never confess to anyone my lil secret">>

I'm not sure if this really illustrates the premise of the thread as I was talking specifically about those in the capitalist class who, if they were to liquidate their assets, could forseeably live comfortably forever.

ebola
 
What's the point of the liberal doctrine but to create mass equality ala communism? To protect the weak from the strong? Protect the poor from the rich? To protect the lazy from the adept?

Totally not the right thread for this... I'm sorry you see it that way, that is all I can say here.

As for all of your arguments, they do not even apply to this thread.

What you are talking about is wanting to do something passionately with all your being and following up on that desire with action.

This thread is about the profit motive .. not any other motive...
 
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