A question about the 1 week initial delay of paws..

[Bojangles69]

I didn't even realize this is WHY I felt good my first week after stopping sub.

But like I said, I stopped, and had felt pretty "normal" for the first 7 days. Had energy, wasn't really depressed at all.
And I was reading that paws usually takes 1-2 weeks to actually start. So you stop your opiate, get through the acute wds, feel good, then a week or 2 later it hits you.

For some reason I never realize paws does that. And it makes sense now thats why I felt good that first week. So that technically means that I'm only 2 weeks into paws then right? lol Instead of 3?

Now I have a hypothetical question. This has nothing to do with relapsing I'm genuinely curious how our neurology works.
Saying a user was in paws, than used an opiate. Didn't get wds, and stopped after 1 day. My question is would that delay the paws again another 7 days? From just 1 dose?
And WHY is there that initial period of feeling ok? It almost makes no sense. I think if more people don't realize paws has this delay, they may be more tempted to relapse when after a week they think they're out of the clear and BAM! here comes the paws.
But if any body knows anything more specific about it I'd love to know why that delay happens.

 

[Help me please]

Bo please see a doctor! You have posted several threads recently that make it obvious you are in some kind of distress! Everyone reacts differently and heals differently. Some get PAWS and some don't. You can't say for sure how long it will last and when it will start.

I recently found a site that listed the "stages" of WD. My two experiences with WD were bits and pieces of three of the six stages. What symptoms I had were horrific but certainly not the text book list and not in order of how I was supposed to get them.

You are obsessing (something I do a lot) about getting back to normal and you won't get there till you get there! No one can tell you when it will stop for you Bo. A doctor can figure out what meds you needs though.

The reason I say a doctor is because you are at risk for relapsing Bo.

 

[bagochina]

I too felt really good the first week I got off sub, it was kinda deceiving. I was exercising, happy, and motivated. Thinking back I think that is what they refer to as being on a 'pink cloud'. Than about a week later things started to turn downward and negative symptoms started to come on and I was slipping into a depression. I didnt really think to much about the delay but that first week I believe I was just super psyched for finally stringing more than 7 days off opiates. That was a well deserved feeling and adrenaline just had me pumped.

As for using once after a couple weeks of being clean and having it reset paws. I dont think that it would reset everything but the damage would be knowing you could get away with it. Than it will just be that much harder to resist the next time opiates present themselves. Paws for me have been clouded with benzo w/d kinda.

I was clean off benzos for 12-14 months [I forget] and than started taking klonopin daily for about 2 months to help me get off the suboxone. I did notice some rebound anxiety and w/d from ceasing the benzos again. Although it was NOTHING like that first year which was hell on earth. At the 12 month mark I started to feel the paws [from the benzo] lessening and decided than it was time that I could physically and mentally handle dealing with opiate w/ds. Even at the 12 month mark though I was stilll experiencing symptoms and I think my body was just acclimated to feeling like shit.

So what I am trying to say is the 2 months I took klonopin again to help ease the bupe w/d didnt set me back into full paws from my previous klonopin w/d. I definitely did experience w/d symptoms [shaking increased, rebound anxiety, general malaise, etc.] but definitely heightened from what I would expect from 2 months of daily benzo use. Than I stopped the benzos again, I forget a month after stopping bupe and I definitely had a pink cloud for about a week after the sub was gone but than that changed and like I said might have been muddled by w/d from the stopping of benzos.

Confusing? Shit tell me about it. the hardest thing I have done EVER and I am so lucky I had my family around me as I basically was laid up for shit 1.5 years. Fucking crazy but I did it.

As for using opiates once in a blue moon, I have definitely had the opportunity many times when opiates were right in front of my face. I would argue with myself in my head about using. Oh once wont hurt, I can handle it, shit I deserve it, etc. but in reality I firmly believe the rush I got from walking away and doing the right thing far eclipsed the high I would have gotten. Not to mention how disappointed I would have been in myself.

Are you thinking about using at all bojangles? Absolutely normal. Oh and I have the whole thing documented over at my website [although not as clear as I wish I would have written] my mind was a mess and truthfully still is at times. I did leave alot out of my posts there and I wish I would have been a little more detailed. I think some part of the w/d begins in dec. 09 but cant really say for sure anymore, ha. I think I had right around 10 months clean from benzos in dec 09? and I started up the blog thing again sometimes right around there. I wish I would have captured the pure insanity of the benzo w/d and everything that went with it. I did write about it in a hand written journal though which is scattered as fuck. It seems like I have been in w/d from either speed, benzos, opiates, booze, or [believe it or not sometimes even weed] for the past couple years.

http://seedlesss.wordpress.com/2009/12/

I wish I would have documented it better for myself. I sometimes enjoy reading back on my fuct up life. It tends to reinforce what I am doing now. I am watching Back to the Future on TV and I have been kinda getting flashbacks from when I was a kid the whole time.

peace.
seedless

 

[bagochina]

Oh and one more thing... ha

Please Help Me, the best thing I have done in for myself during this horrible w/d period of my life was NOT to see a doctor. Some doctors helped me in the past but most of them just only do what they know how, write scripts. Just putting that out there as I think anti-d's are not a positive thing to be on as something that alters your brain chemistry in such a specific dramatic way might just cause problems down the road. You cant really say for sure. Not to mention repairing your brain naturally is the way to go. The last doctor I was seeing was telling me get on this anti-d or that anti-d. I finally let my guard down and said ok I will try one [I have probably been on 5-8 different anti-d's through the years and they never did anything but cause problems].

I remember this last doc telling me that my brain chemistry was so out of wack for what I put myself through and it would be out of wack for months/years? dealing with benzo w/d and that my best bet would be to go on another anti-d to 'smooth' out my chemistry during the phase where my brains starts to repair itself. That just made no sense to me. Start taking a pill that alters my brain chemistry so my brain chemistry can go back to normal? Please. Like I said natural sobriety is better. I am biased against doctors though

peace.
seedless

 

[Bojangles69]

Thanks guys I'm about 90% sure at this point that I'm going back.
Even if the paws lasted only another week (which its not) I still think it could take 3-4 months before I have any energy to do anything.
I have far too many responsibilites now, not to mention I am depressed everyday as much as I can be, and I honestly have no "purpose" anymore. I KNOW its the paws, but in a way I don't really care anymore.
I just honestly do not want to wake up tommorow just to ask myself 100 questions "why". "Why am I putting myself through this?" "Why do I get up every morning when I'd rather be dead?" "Why am I still breathing if theres nothing to look forward too". I use opiates to cope with the fact that my life sucks.
Thats the simple plain truth.
Opiates make my life suck worse after a while.
So I know if I go back long term nothing will get better.

But I can't wait any longer for the effexor to get here. I've already convinced myself to go on a low dose of sub (.10mg) just so I can wake up in the morning and do what I need to do throughout the day. I came into this with the most immediate urgency to quit immediately, and its really too fast a process even taking 3 months to taper. I never had paws last time when I went straight to lex, and getting off the lex was not hard at all. So I'm gonna give effexor a shot, and at worst I can go on lex again (its just the apathy towards the end that gets me with lex). But for now I honestly have no motivation anymore to be clean.

I'm just being honest. I can make it look like I slipped and "accidentally" relapsed. But this entire process has been sooo long, sooo drawn out, so black, and so steep for me. Just considering that I could feel like this for a few more months is my answer to going back. I'm sorry, but I'll get on anti-ds as soon as possible and try again.

I'm just too depressed these days and theres no point living anymore unless I either:

A) kill myself or
B) try a different plan

People should know by now that I'm not looking for excuse to use. If I did I'd just eat 8mgs of sub. But I'm only taking a small amount to fend off the depression till the effexor comes. I don't want anyone to be worried for me, cause doing this actually makes me feel stronger. I'm not afraid to go back to opiates cause they DO NOT control me anylonger. And being on opiates but IN CONTROL allows me to be somewhat happy. Its really when I abuse aimlessly that bad things start happening.
So 1-2 weeks on sub doesn't scare me. Maybe it should, but it doesn't. After that, we'll run the effexor for 6-12 months and give my sober brain a shot when I get off it. But if I have to deal with paws for 2-3 more months I'm gonna wind up failing out of college, getting fired from my internship, or SOMETHING is just gonna happen. I'm already behind on school work and school started 1 week ago lol. This is not me, so a new plan goes into motion.

 

[Help me please]

Oh and one more thing... ha

Please Help Me, the best thing I have done in for myself during this horrible w/d period of my life was NOT to see a doctor. Some doctors helped me in the past but most of them just only do what they know how, write scripts. Just putting that out there as I think anti-d's are not a positive thing to be on as something that alters your brain chemistry in such a specific dramatic way might just cause problems down the road. You cant really say for sure. Not to mention repairing your brain naturally is the way to go. The last doctor I was seeing was telling me get on this anti-d or that anti-d. I finally let my guard down and said ok I will try one [I have probably been on 5-8 different anti-d's through the years and they never did anything but cause problems].

I remember this last doc telling me that my brain chemistry was so out of wack for what I put myself through and it would be out of wack for months/years? dealing with benzo w/d and that my best bet would be to go on another anti-d to 'smooth' out my chemistry during the phase where my brains starts to repair itself. That just made no sense to me. Start taking a pill that alters my brain chemistry so my brain chemistry can go back to normal? Please. Like I said natural sobriety is better. I am biased against doctors though

peace.
seedless

Seedless I was directing my remarks to Bo. Everyone is different. I know Bo's history very well and also care a lot about him and want him to be healed. We both have been through an ordeal with these drugs recently. He helped me and I helped him. I can't sit by and watch him fail now! It is his talk of suicide and also the fact that he has high BP that is not controlled 24/7 that concerns me most! Doctors are not the enemy. Most people who see a pyschiatrist and insist they don't know what they are talking about are the ones who really have the most issues. Do you think they could get away with just being pill pushers? I'm confused because with your history of drug use you were taking drugs that altered your brain chemistry. Do you really think your brain has gone back to normal now? All those years of drug use and no damage at all? Have you had a scan to verify that?

 

[Bojangles69]

Thanks helpme I appreciate it. You've in a way become like virtual family to me.

My problem is I simply can NOT deal with this depression. I was reading motivating quotes all day when I got home from work like "pain is weakness leaving the body" and "tears will get you sympathy but sweat will get you results", over and over different pearls of wisdom that directly apply to my situation.
But it still in no way makes me feel better.
I understand that I'm NOT suppose to feel better. But it seems to get worse the further I get into it. At 2 weeks sure I felt crummy but suicide never passed my mind.
At 3 weeks I felt crummy and started getting as depressed I can imagine myself to be. And I think today would have actually been 4 weeks on the nose.

But its impossible unless I have something to give me a boost. Is it a weakness? A negative association in my beliefs? Probably yeh. But wtf, all day long all I see is people living normal clean lives, smiling, cracking jokes with each other. And meanwhile I keep saying in my head "it could be months before I feel like them.. maybe even years... maybe I'll NEVER quite feel like that again".
And so I crumbled.

But whats funny is the sub did not do a single thing. My skins still cold, I have goosebumps, and I'm still depressed lol. Its like my body is so fucking out of wack right now it can't even pump the little bit of sub into my receptors.

So yeh, the sub didn't do a thing. I didn't even remotely feel a shift after taking it. And obvioulsy my first thought was "take more", but that breaches the whole control policy, so I'm back to the drawing boards.
I may need to crawl to a dr this week for help I'm not sure. I have a very limited supply of sub and am likely to run out anyway before my effexor gets here. I'm just being logical. Maybe the sub will lift the paws a bit tommorow but as of now it seemed worthless.

I'm GOING TO FIGURE OUT this problem. I just can't see myself getting through paws without some form of an anti-depressant. I never was able to stay on anti-ds in the past long anyway, so I usually get sick of them pretty fast. But they DID HELP ME a TON during my last experience.
So my main priority right now is getting some sort of anti-depressant in my body asap. I may go to a doc, I may wait for my effexor. But most likely I'm gonna break and just go to doctor anyway. I can relapse but I refuse to lose my will in the process, so either way something will change soon I'm sure... well I hope.

edit: I did just think of another idea but its more or less an idea. I have an old script bottle of paxil from like 4 years ago. And it was refilled right before I got off it. I have about 50 - 25mg paxil. If I start taking 12.5mg now, I may feel some sort of lift in a couple weeks. But one reason I don't like paxil it has the worst wds of any ssri on the market. Thats one ssri I will NOT say is easy to stop. But I was thinking if I switch paxil, to effexor, it COULD result in a smooth transition off the paxil.
Well no it wouldn't, Lexapro would but not effexor. I don't know but just knowing those paxils are mine and knowing that they CAN lift this depression I'm so tempted to get them tommorow. Going to a doctor is possible, more than possible, but I can't tell him its an emergency cause my dad goes to the same dr. And I'd be afraid he might tell me dad "your son called a couple of weeks ago in bad situation how is he doing?" Well I know for a fact they talk about me and me and that doc talk about my dad.
Ugghh! Idk. Plus it costs money for the visits, then they make you come back every 2 weeks and pay again. Its bullshit how a doctor will purposely not put a refill on your bottle JUST SO you can come in, pay the fee, and get your script. Like COMEONE, give me at least ONE refill. Doctors are just petty pill pushers almost like dealers themselves.
But I'm running out of options so at this point I can really care less what I have to do.

 

[Help me please]

Bo my point is that a doctor and probably a psychiatrist that deals with addiction would be right for you. All the addicts, taperers, recoverers, etc. that you meet online and even talk to on the phone cannot diagnose what is really wrong! We can tell you our experiences only and what worked for us. A doctor can see you and feel you and check blood work etc. You have a better shot at being medicated properly by a doctor than by self medicating. Keep in mind that self medicating is the first step toward being an addict! Level with your parents. Let them be proud of the fact that you got off the pods! Tell your mom I included you in my nightly novena to the Infant of Prague Let them help you out financially if you need it to see a doctor. I know your parents love you and want the best for you! Maybe your brother could help you if need be. Tell him you want help but don't want to hear any remarks from him till after you pay him back and then kick his ass because by then you will be feeling better and have all your muscles back too!

Oh about the doctor saying something to your dad...One word....HIPPA. Say that and remind the doctor you want nothing said to anyone including family if that's how you want it. He won't risk his license over gossip to your dad. Just get well Bo. You might not need 24/7 psych meds either. Maybe just an as needed one for panic etc.

 

[Bojangles69]

Thanks helpme my mom would very much take that as a compliment.
I did actually call my doctor last tuesday just to prove that I AM willing to do it. What wound up happening was I got an answering machine saying "hi, our hours are mon, wednesday, thursday, and friday from .." and obviously I took it has an omen that it wasn't meant to be. I mean what are the chances I call the on the one day they're closed lol? But I will definitely try again on monday.
And thanks for the HIPPA word, I'm not going to say the actual word but I will tell him that I'd rather he doesn't mention any of my business to my family like you said. I am getting somewhat tired of always devising "solutions" by trial and error so it can't hurt to try.

I also am about 90% sure at this point that my dose never bypassed my intenstines. In an odd sort of way the paws actually prevented me from dosing right. I had eaten a half hour before, and was so distracted by my own depression, that I didn't even consider I wasn't suppose to plug at that time (you never plug after you eat). So I'm more than sure I shot it right into my.. well, feces lol.
I always get a slightly painful intenstinal contraction when it moves through, and I didn't get the pain. Nor did my mood improve, nor did I get any energy, and I'm still getting random hot flashes like I do everyday.
If thats not enough. When I came in here hours ago to post that I was going to relapse, the actual site had shutdown, and I couldn't post it. I checked my connection and it worked fine, so I realized it was just the site. I came back 5 mins later to post, and still couldn't.
For some reason I couldn't relapse untill I posted here that I was going to do it (I'm weird like that yeh) and that was the same time I went to get food.

So think about it.
Right when I made up my mind I was relapsing, the site shutdown. That forced me to go eat food cause I was hungry. And then I came back a half hour later to post it. After I posted it, I went to plug the sub, and shot it right into my feces. If thats not someone up above telling me I'm going in the wrong direction, then I don't know wtf it is. But the chances of that happening again are like 0 to none.

Its possible an extremely tiny amount still made its way in. But I'll be able to tell better in the morning if I can't get up easily. Either way, this almost didn't seem planned by me, but by the person you said those novenas too.
I'm not thinking about it too much, and am just going to call the doc on monday. Thanks everyone for the help, really.

 

[xxkcxx]

To answer your question about the 1-2 week delay, think of it like this....

Your body just went through some physically painful withdrawals and your neurotransmitters have been fucked with for awhile now. Suddenly, you are out of withdrawals and your body *begins* to get back into the swing of things. For a little while you will feel good because it is so relieved to feel physically better and you are still optimistic about your decision to quit,

Then, after a week or so, as stress starts building up and you don't have those drugs as a coping mechanism and your neurotransmitters are still faaaaaar from being back to "normal" it starts to feel to much to handle.

If you don't know, opiates fit into the endorphin receptors, so after abusing opiates for awhile, your body gets wise and is like "it this dude is giving me synthetic endorphins, I'm not going to go to work and make my own." Therefore, when you stop putting opiates in your body, it takes awhile for your body to figure out to make its own and when to make them. That's why you really need to work hard in recovery to figure out those things that release natural endorphins.

 

[Colmes]

I didn't even realize this is WHY I felt good my first week after stopping sub.

But like I said, I stopped, and had felt pretty "normal" for the first 7 days. Had energy, wasn't really depressed at all.
And I was reading that paws usually takes 1-2 weeks to actually start. So you stop your opiate, get through the acute wds, feel good, then a week or 2 later it hits you.

For some reason I never realize paws does that. And it makes sense now thats why I felt good that first week. So that technically means that I'm only 2 weeks into paws then right? lol Instead of 3?

Now I have a hypothetical question. This has nothing to do with relapsing I'm genuinely curious how our neurology works.
Saying a user was in paws, than used an opiate. Didn't get wds, and stopped after 1 day. My question is would that delay the paws again another 7 days? From just 1 dose?
And WHY is there that initial period of feeling ok? It almost makes no sense. I think if more people don't realize paws has this delay, they may be more tempted to relapse when after a week they think they're out of the clear and BAM! here comes the paws.
But if any body knows anything more specific about it I'd love to know why that delay happens.

I too experienced this with sub a good 6-7 days of being completely fine (besides missing it) before w/d. However with other opiates its much less and its progressive. Then its next day edgy, 2 days w/d onset, lots of psychological w/d; 3rd day full withdrawal. Sub stays in your body for awhile; and over-time it builds up in your body. The longer you take it, then the longer after you stop use does it leave your body fully.

PAWS is very serious, and sometimes even more difficult than immediate w/d for addicts. All of the symptoms that go along with it can last for months or years depending on the habit. So really I just dont think you can put a time limit on paws. Plus if your addiction is strong, and you relapse then it would be more serious than 7 more days.

Just my educated opinion, maybe someone else has more info.

 

[belfort]

^^it isnt even worth debating, Paws is by far harder to deal with than the initial withdrawals..in fact, many counselors right now are debating this exact topic at a detox center right nearby...they fear that telling current addicts about paws and the hurdles it brings will almost scare any addict into not even bother wanting to try and get clean..i see their point though..

its also hard to decipher what is truly Paws and what is depression or getting old or problems due to other things in ones life..i mean, how many of us addicts even remember what we felt like before we ever tried drugs??

 

[ferrita]

I don't post often, but do read daily. And, I think I have read everything by Bojangles......lol. Great writer. Inspirational. And I think you are maybe selling yourself short. Its the PAWS.

As an almost 50 year old opiohile............I have been through the mill and back again.. I had a hardcore addiction to heroin. Years. I also had easy and ready access to pharmaceutical morphine......damn nice. And I also had friends who interviened and basically locked me in a room and made me go old school.............It was UGLY as fuck. No shit......but one thing I remember vividly a year or so later was that one day, I was OK again..........and I vaguley remember the year. I mean I worked, I functioned. I stayed clean. I got healthy. the healthiest I have ever been in my life. But for me it was a solid year of what I guesss is just lost time or something.


Then I got addicted to cocaine........for a few years. IV. and then people started smoking it and I was like WTF is that....Ended up with the feds on my ass. Had to hop a plane and leave state. Went to a really jacked up place and went off the coke......I had zero physical problems with the coke.......but mentally.........It was again a year... or so, and some of those days I wanted to die. i would lay in bed both times and not move. Not eat, not do anything....just wanted to die. but I went about getting healthy again. Was told I coudl never have a child...insides way messed up. Was PG almost six months when I went off the coke and didn't even know I was pg........baby was dead inside me....bad bad stuff........I mean for real. But I waited it out, and again, one day I was OK again!

Then came the booze.......a quart of jose quervo a day. straight outta the bottle.. Got a DUI and just did the stupidest shit. and one day woke up and said no more......and I was fine.

And now years later withe serious health issues. I ened up right back on the opiates. Only now the dealer is legal and I ain't getting busted for using. Ended up on high high doses of morphine, norco and a few others combined. One night I got stupid and added a few xani bars and some dillies to the mix and next thing I knew I woke up on a ventilator.....my 17 year old son found me completley non responsive sitting up nodded out blood running out my none and mouth..........watched the paramedics hit me with the paddles etc.....and then watched up pulp fiction me....yep......I bolted straight up....what do they expect from someone on opiates for 14 years.......

He begged me to get off the meds......I came home and he sobbed...he pleaded, he begged.... and this is a great kid.......and He played his guitar for me for hours and again pleaded and begged.......and I said okay. I don't know if I can even walk without them, and I did an 8 day taper from multi drugs.......all opiates....... and 300 mg a day morphine, 40 a day oxycontin. 40 a day norco 3200mg neurontin, and 40 mg day baclophen.......and I said okay I will do it..... I did this in eight days..........it started as a fast hard taper and finished cold turkey...........and I was doing better and I was off them a few months and I fell and I fractured my hip and jacked up my lower lumbar worse and I had to go back on it........I only went on 15mg of morph 2x daily.......and my kids knew I was on it theminute they saw me....so i am off it........and I get depressed......and am in pain........and I keep having to find reasons to go on. and sometimes its easier said then done.

This is a lot longer then I planned, but through tall the various withdrawls I have been through, many of them, the majority opiates..........usually after no less then a year of use.......I had never heard the word PAWS and way back when, they didn't have new fancy drugs like Suboxone.........etc...and I survived. Sometimes I didn't think I would.....sometimes I wonder why I did.

But, keep on keepiing on. Many people care for you, even if you don't know it. I;m one of em. One day you will look up and you will be okay again......try not to cave......and remember relapse is part of recovery... That doesn't mean to relapse....much love to you.