5ht2B affinities or finding the least cardiotoxic psych

[Hexagon Sun]

I have some mild to severe cardiac fibrosys so I have to be extra cautious with the 5ht psychs that I take (and love).

I have spent something like 2-3 weeks looking for affinity tables of the receptors for each psychedelic, or at least the most common ones but I can´t find it. The idea is to find the least cardiotoxic ones. If you know where to get that data it would be more than grateful.

Also any info regarding harm reduction for the heart valves. Which supplements or combos to take/avoid, etc.

A 5ht2a, 5ht2b antagonist that doesnt not cross the BBB would be a godsend, but it appears that or it doesnt exist or we had not discovered it yet

 

[Phobos]

If you are looking for psychedelic drugs to be used in a traditional way, meaning doses will be spaced out by time measured in weeks, not hours, you are probably fine with any psychedelic.
You need to take 5HT2B agonists a whole lot of times before you get heart damage.

 

[MescaliCAN]

The only psychedelic (if you can even classify it that way) that has shown cardio toxicity and has killed people is ibogaine, and even that has only killed people at a flood dose (i.e., several gram dose).

In DMT - The Spirit Molecule, Rick Strassman shares the story of a member of the trials who had a heart issue (I can’t recall which one I’ll have to look it up in the book later tonight) that exhibited some warning signs during an IV DMT experience but ultimately came out ok. He did not allow him to participate in further trials however.

I watched the Paul Stamets appearance on the Joe Rogan podcast again last night and he spoke about the FDA leaning towards moving psilocybin mushrooms to schedule II due to their pronounced benefits and safety profile, and given its long history of use that may be your best bet.

All of that to say that we are all ultimately a sample size of 1, and just because none of the classic psychedelics have yet to show cardio toxicity in the clinical literature or in anecdote doesn’t mean that is definitively safe for you and your situation.

It sounds like you’ve already taken them before - what are you trying to get out of them moving forward? Meaning is it the fully immersive psychedelic experience, of the long term beneficial aspects? If it’s the latter, micro dosing is likely to be the safest route given how low the dose is.

I hope someone on this site which far greater knowledge can shed further light on this for you.

 

[Chris Timothy]

I thought that was the thing with the heart valve stuff. It's not the dose, but the frequency of receptor activation that is to be factored in. In which case microdosing won't help.

I definitely skip some microdosing days just because it feels weird on the heart.

 

[Phobos]

The only psychedelic (if you can even classify it that way) that has shown cardio toxicity and has killed people is ibogaine, and even that has only killed people at a flood dose (i.e., several gram dose).

In DMT - The Spirit Molecule, Rick Strassman shares the story of a member of the trials who had a heart issue (I can’t recall which one I’ll have to look it up in the book later tonight) that exhibited some warning signs during an IV DMT experience but ultimately came out ok. He did not allow him to participate in further trials however.

I watched the Paul Stamets appearance on the Joe Rogan podcast again last night and he spoke about the FDA leaning towards moving psilocybin mushrooms to schedule II due to their pronounced benefits and safety profile, and given its long history of use that may be your best bet.

All of that to say that we are all ultimately a sample size of 1, and just because none of the classic psychedelics have yet to show cardio toxicity in the clinical literature or in anecdote doesn’t mean that is definitively safe for you and your situation.

It sounds like you’ve already taken them before - what are you trying to get out of them moving forward? Meaning is it the fully immersive psychedelic experience, of the long term beneficial aspects? If it’s the latter, micro dosing is likely to be the safest route given how low the dose is.

I hope someone on this site which far greater knowledge can shed further light on this for you.

Any drug with 5HT2B agonism will actually be cardiotoxic to some extent, ofcourse the actual damage depending on how many times and how much of the drug is taken.
But basically all classic psychedelic are cardiotoxic in that way, meaning that they will not cause damage if taken sporadically... Research would be needed to find out how often is too much.

 

[MescaliCAN]

Gotcha that is all very interesting to know. Do you happen to have a source for that information? I would be interested in reading more about this.

 

[Hexagon Sun]

If you are looking for psychedelic drugs to be used in a traditional way, meaning doses will be spaced out by time measured in weeks, not hours, you are probably fine with any psychedelic.
You need to take 5HT2B agonists a whole lot of times before you get heart damage.

The point is that I spent 4-5 years taking a SSRI, effexor (venlafaxine) per my doctor suggestion. Most antidepressives are cardiotoxic as hell due a constant 5ht agonism. I quitted effexor as I started to feel the heart issue but it was too late, the damage was done.

On the other side, I truly love microdoses. I could (and would) spent the rest of my days in a sensible microdose regimen if I could but the last times I have taken it I develop heart symptoms not during the dose, that goes smooth and heavenly, but 24-36h later... I get that fibrotic pricks and spasms... So here I am dying to take another microdose, but literally dying if I take it. Thanks, Venlafaxine. Thanks doctors for ruining my life and my mitral valve.

I know there must exist some solution. After various months of research, I have found that dark cocoa and green tea is very cardio friendly. There are some incredibly expensive meds like lisuride, which is an ergot alkaloid analog to the "hydergine" found by Hoffman that seems promising in reverting the valves damage. It´s an 5ht2b ANTAGONIST. But lisuride costs like 60USD/month, maybe I would need 2-3 years of taking it to see if it reverts the damage, how my body reacts to it, and explain all that to a doctor to get the script.

So I was thinking maybe fellow bluelighters knows something that I don´t that can help fix all that mess

 

[Hexagon Sun]

So, finally I found a nice table of affinities for all the receptors of the follwing compounds:

Drug​	5ht2b​
DOM​	4,0000​
lisuride​	3,0147​
TMA-2​	4,0000​
TMA​	4,0000​
LSD​	3,1139​
2C-B​	4,0000​
DMT​	3,9102​
5-MeO-TMT​	ND​
2C-E​	4,0000​
SS-2c​	2,1707​
5-MeO-MIPT​	3,3227​
EMDT​	ND​
DOET​	3,6990​
Mescaline​	3,9732​
MDA​	4,0000​
2C-T-2​	4,0000​
4C-T-2​	4,0000​
6-F-DMT​	3,9340​
2C-B-fly​	4,0000​
MDMA​	3,6429​
THC​	ND​
Psilocin​	4,0000​
5-MeO-DIPT​	3,9097​
Morphine​	ND​
Salvinorin_A​	0,0000​
RR-2b​	1,8069​
DPT​	3,8792​
Aleph-2​	4,0000​
DIPT​	3,4806​
5-MeO-DMT​	0,6895​
DOB​	4,0000​
DOI​	3,1347​
Ibogaine​	ND​
cis-2a​	2,7183​
MEM​	4,0000​

Three of the least cardiotoxic are unknow by me: SS-2C, RR-2B and CIS-2A. Any idea of what they mean/are?

The table is located here:

https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0009019.s009

And is formatted in a stange way. 4 are the top affinity (most cardiotoxic). Is in logarithmic form, so 3 means 10 times less affinity/cardiotoxicity, 2 100 times less and so on.

The most safe one for the heart is 5-meo-dmt, with only 0.6 affinity. Then DOI and LSD, with 3.1. Then moxy (5-meo-mipt) with 3.3. The rest are more or less full agonist with 4 points

I would love to find data for other common ones like DOC, 2C-P, 2CI, the new lisergamides and the nBOMes. If someone find it please post it here or notify me via PM

 

[cj187]

Three of the least cardiotoxic are unknow by me: SS-2C, RR-2B and CIS-2A. Any idea of what they mean/are?

Those are the three stereoisomers of LSZ. SS-2C is the one that was sold as a research chemical.

 

[Xorkoth]

Not that it answers your question, but look into starting a hawthorne extract supplement. Compounds in hawthorne have been shown to help repair heart damage.